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The Omega Glory

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Apr. 01 2011, 4:05 pm

I believe that Kirk and Spock have a brotherhood that transcends even romantic love. That's NOT to say that there's a homosexual relationship, at least by MY interpertation. I don't think there's a sexual relationship or attraction between these men. But, the BROTHERHOOD is perhaps an even STRONGER type of love than the romantic love that the K/S fans tend to focus on.


I'm a beliver in the strength of the brotherhood. The scene between the two men in TMP is all the proof I need.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Apr. 01 2011, 4:07 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Apr. 01 2011, 2:23 pm

>

>sBut seriously, I was a bad girl to start defending K/S in this thread.


 


HAHA! There's nothing wrong with being a "bad girl!"


 


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

toranaprem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 621

Report this Apr. 01 2011, 4:45 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ Apr. 01 2011, 4:05 pm

>

>I believe that Kirk and Spock have a brotherhood that transcends even romantic love. That's NOT to say that there's a homosexual relationship, at least by MY interpertation. I don't think there's a sexual relationship or attraction between these men. But, the BROTHERHOOD is perhaps an even STRONGER type of love than the romantic love that the K/S fans tend to focus on.

>I'm a beliver in the strength of the brotherhood. The scene between the two men in TMP is all the proof I need.

>


Yeah, I definitely understand where you're coming from in your interpretation, because what Kirk and Spock felt for each other definitely surpassed what either of them ever felt for any woman, whether that feeling was of a romantic nature or not.


I think the reason I see their love as romantic is because I'm a woman, and a feminist. I've seen fans defend the platonic brotherhood between the two men by acting as though sex would somehow cheapen the epic profundity of their love (not that you're making that argument!) and I see that kind of thinking as intimately tied to institutionalized misogyny. The idea that women are sexualized beings and that any and all love that can be felt for them is going to be lesser than a platonic ideal unless desire is eradicated. The very idea that sex denigrates is abhorent to me. Becoming lovers, if done out of genuine love, is a celebration of the other, a genuine desire to give pleasure, and has nothing to do with objectification or devaluing of another person. I think it is only those who seek sexual gratification through objectification that see sex as a degrading act, and rightly so, because their approach to sex is degrading.


And you know, platonic love (verses romantic love - or what I think of as "completeness" love, parental love, sisterly/brotherly, or what I think of as "side by side" love) has never held any real traction with me because it is almost always is tied to a patriarchal values framework (be it Christian puritanism or Aristotilean misogyny) where women are reproductive vessels reminding transcendental male thinkers of their inherent "earth-boundness". I mean, Plato like nearly all the thinkers of his time was a misogynist, and while he may have advocated the platonic ideal, it was never in tandem with the condemnation of sex between men, only with women. It is modern thinkers that have conflated ancient Greek misogyny with a low opinion of sex in general, because in our culture we always approach the notion of "sex" with heteronormative assumptions that were alien to the culture we claim to be emulating.


Anyhow, thanks for the thoughtful and reasoned discussion as always, Vger.


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Apr. 01 2011, 5:11 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Apr. 01 2011, 4:45 pm

Quote: Vger23 @ Apr. 01 2011, 4:05 pm

>

>

>I believe that Kirk and Spock have a brotherhood that transcends even romantic love. That's NOT to say that there's a homosexual relationship, at least by MY interpertation. I don't think there's a sexual relationship or attraction between these men. But, the BROTHERHOOD is perhaps an even STRONGER type of love than the romantic love that the K/S fans tend to focus on.

>I'm a beliver in the strength of the brotherhood. The scene between the two men in TMP is all the proof I need.

>

Yeah, I definitely understand where you're coming from in your interpretation, because what Kirk and Spock felt for each other definitely surpassed what either of them ever felt for any woman, whether that feeling was of a romantic nature or not.

I think the reason I see their love as romantic is because I'm a woman, and a feminist. I've seen fans defend the platonic brotherhood between the two men by acting as though sex would somehow cheapen the epic profundity of their love (not that you're making that argument!) and I see that kind of thinking as intimately tied to institutionalized misogyny. The idea that women are sexualized beings and that any and all love that can be felt for them is going to be lesser than a platonic ideal unless desire is eradicated. The very idea that sex denigrates is abhorent to me. Becoming lovers, if done out of genuine love, is a celebration of the other, a genuine desire to give pleasure, and has nothing to do with objectification or devaluing of another person. I think it is only those who seek sexual gratification through objectification that see sex as a degrading act, and rightly so, because their approach to sex is degrading.

And you know, platonic love (verses romantic love - or what I think of as "completeness" love, parental love, sisterly/brotherly, or what I think of as "side by side" love) has never held any real traction with me because it is almost always is tied to a patriarchal values framework (be it Christian puritanism or Aristotilean misogyny) where women are reproductive vessels reminding transcendental male thinkers of their inherent "earth-boundness". I mean, Plato like nearly all the thinkers of his time was a misogynist, and while he may have advocated the platonic ideal, it was never in tandem with the condemnation of sex between men, only with women. It is modern thinkers that have conflated ancient Greek misogyny with a low opinion of sex in general, because in our culture we always approach the notion of "sex" with heteronormative assumptions that were alien to the culture we claim to be emulating.

Anyhow, thanks for the thoughtful and reasoned discussion as always, Vger.


NICE POST!!! Thanks for the great input!!!


I AM KEE-ROCK!!

luvy4532

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 187

Report this Apr. 04 2011, 7:21 pm

To get back to one of the origional questions,  Kirk was a historian much like Picard. He read old books and I believe he read historic books as well. So of course he would have connected the the two flags and other "american" symbols. He would have known the words because of his brillant memory.   Kirk was a very passionate man and made various speeches.


live long and.....

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