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the borg and projectile weapons

Camorite

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 7:14 am

ok, in a nutshell, i do not like the tommygun scene in First Contact. I think that it is inacurate and it has set forth the belief that the borg are vulnerable to projectile weapons, even though there has been no real proof that this is true. The reason that i say this is because it is established canon that it takes anywhere from one to twelve drones being taken down by a perticular weapon before they adapt to it and the weapon becomes useless, and Picard only took down two drones with the tommy gun.


This also includes bladed weapons and hand to hand combat as well, as we have seen the borg adapt to fighting styles and attacks as well (Unimatrix Zero and First Contact).


So in the end the question is, Do you really think that the Borg can adapt to Projectile weapons, or do you believe, like i do, that it is only a matter of time before they adapt to them?

___Lucifer___

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 8:54 am

where are you pulling this 1-12 number from?? Also what was the type of weapon involved in the scenario? I want video clips.


First of all you need to define "adapt." Most people take "adapt" to mean "throw up a forcefield." Your definition of "adapt" is different, thus skewing the discussion.


How about "energy?" This is an important term that also needs clarification. Most people associate "energy" weapons to be "directed energy weapons" (ie, beams or bolts of coherent energy). In the thread that spawned this one, you actually claim that bullets are energy weapons too.


Why should anyone believe that the Borg can indeed adapt to non-energy based attacks when there's ZERO evidence that they can and a mountain of evidence that they cannot?


I can't wait to see all the Borg wankers come out of the woodwork.


___Lucifer___

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 9:02 am

The Enterprise episode Regeneration shows that not only are the Borg vulnerable to a wide range of physical attacks, simply doubling the output of a phase pistol is enough to just blow through their adaptation to it for most of the end assault.

Camorite

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 9:53 am

where are you pulling this 1-12 number from?? Also what was the type of weapon involved in the scenario? I want video clips.


Lets see now it is what was stated by Worf in both Best of Both Worlds and then again in First Contact with the weapons that they had on hand type 2 and 3 phasers. It might have also been mentioned in Scorpion as well when they were preparing to go through Borg space. But just because it is only said for phasers it does not mean that it is only true for phasers, especially since it would be reltivly easy to adjust a feild to repel projectile attacks as well.


First of all you need to define "adapt." Most people take "adapt" to mean "throw up a forcefield." Your definition of "adapt" is different, thus skewing the discussion


i take the word by its literal meaning, which is to figure out a defence against something. This can mean a weapon or a fighting style. BTW, to think that to adapt means to throw up a force field only is, with all due respect, extreamly narrow minded thinking (no offence intended).


How about "energy?" This is an important term that also needs clarification. Most people associate "energy" weapons to be "directed energy weapons" (ie, beams or bolts of coherent energy). In the thread that spawned this one, you actually claim that bullets are energy weapons too.


Well if it came off that way, then i appologies right now for the confusion. Energy weapons are exactly as you stated them to be. What i was trying to state on that other thread is that projectile weapons could be considered an energy weapon because of how the amunition is expelled out of the chamber.


Why should anyone believe that the Borg can indeed adapt to non-energy based attacks when there's ZERO evidence that they can and a mountain of evidence that they cannot?


Ok, i will play your game, give me this mountain of evidence and lets see how solid it really is.


The Enterprise episode Regeneration shows that not only are the Borg vulnerable to a wide range of physical attacks, simply doubling the output of a phase pistol is enough to just blow through their adaptation to it for most of the end assault.


Ok, first off what physical attacks are you refering too? the only one that i can remember is when Reed used the butt of his gun to stop that borg from assimilating one of his men in the tubes, and that was hardly conclusive, as for one the drone was not fully assimilated yet, and two it only stopped him from injecting the crewman with nanoprobes. another instance is possibly when Archer used that virus that Phlox gave him on that drone they encountered on the ship.


As for the phase pistol thing, lets not forget that those things are a predicessor of the phasers that we see in the other four series, so it is posible, however unlikely you might think it is, that they have something that was not used in later models. but you convienently fail to mention that in the end the Borg did adapt to the pistols as well, agian within the 1-12 margin that was mentioned earlier.

scottjimenez

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 3:59 pm

projectiles: hard to stop...remember that is pure kinetic energy. now then...we have an energy based weapon: dissipation field(force field) comes into play. why if the scimitar's shields were still at 70% it couldnt stop the E from the ram. the ship was the projectile. different types of energy.

Camorite

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:13 pm

worf was able to create a force field that protected him from bullets in Fist Full of Data's, and all he used was two comunicators with 19th century parts. IF a klingon with mostly 19th century parts and two tiny communicators could do it, then the borg sure as hell should be able to as well.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:27 pm

Picard kills only two drones that are in contact with a limited collective. The scene is a good one, but the Borg are no more vulnerable to projectile weapons than any other. With enough time and study they can create a defense for anything. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

tribblenator999

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:31 pm

what i don't get is shouldn't the borg have limited power for their forcefields.  Even if they adapt to particle weaopns every time they get hit their forcefields should weaken.


As for bullet weapons the only way borg could adapt would to literally have armor plates on them or high powered deflectors like on a starship. the armor plate thing would be more reasonable.  Until they do guns beat borg.

janewayjunkie74656

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:34 pm

I recall a thread somewhat like this some time ago......... where someone made a point that the Borg adapt to phaser fire because it's pure energy, but not phyical fighting and stuff. Like they wouldn't adapt to Worf running up to a Borg with a bat'leth.


So I think a good way to defeat the Borg next time is to replicate an old-fashioned gun so they can't adapt. For now.


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Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:34 pm

Why is this an argument?  A forcefield stops any particles from penetrating it. That is how the Enterprises navigational deflector works. A vessel would not be able to travel at the speeds needed if it did not have a forcefield capable of deflecting micro-particles. An energy field could easily dissolve or deflect projectiles, and the Borg are capable of generating the field. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

janewayjunkie74656

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:37 pm

Quote: Lieutenant_Jedi @ Mar. 06 2011, 4:34 pm

>

>Why is this an argument?  A forcefield stops any particles from penetrating it. That is how the Enterprises navigational deflector works. A vessel would not be able to travel at the speeds needed if it did not have a forcefield capable of deflecting micro-particles. An energy field could easily dissolve or deflect projectiles, and the Borg are capable of generating the field. 

>


So why then don't they adapt to physical fighting???


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Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:41 pm

Remember the Borg do not look at each individual drone as being of excessive value. If a being that is attacking the Borg wishes to exhaust itself fighting hand to hand, then the collective does not really need to bother saving a few drones. The being will eventually tire, and then can be eliminated/assimilated. 


 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 4:42 pm

Only larger threats to the Collective must be contained and stopped, thus the adaptation to defend against weapons that can kill large numbers of drones or stop the Collective's activity.


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Jason222

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 8:22 pm

It also depend time and data during 25 century Borg drone had type protect shield protect soild weapons.

Camorite

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 9:08 pm

So why then don't they adapt to physical fighting???


they do adapt to physical fighting, this is proven in the Voyager episode Unimatrix Zero when a klingon attacked three drones. he took out the first two but the third one dodged his attack. when Janeway stepped in to take over the fight the drone was unable to defend against her because it didn't know how she fights.

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