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Would Spock commit suicide?

MosMaiorum

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Report this Mar. 04 2011, 11:00 pm

My friend and I got into a heated debated about this. What do you think Spock's justifcation for living would be? Please consider more than just the standard, "it isn't logical" approach. More philosophical...


Figured this is the best place to ask.

___Lucifer___

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Report this Mar. 04 2011, 11:17 pm

He actually did in TWOK.


Beershark

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 5:33 am

Spock, in very logical fashion, makes a distinction between suicide and sacrifice. So, no he didn't actually commit suicidein TWOK, he did what he knew was necesary to save the ship and her crew. That is not suicide.


Does the soldier that throws himself on a grenade to save the lives others commit suicide? Does the officer that dies in a gun battle with a scumbag (recent news here, 3 in a month) commit suicide? Did the fire fighters that ran into the twin towers while others were running out commit suicide?


I think not.

Trekwolf164

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 6:39 am

And the fighter pilots from Japan who flew one way missions  ?


The religious extremist who straps bombs to its body and visits a mall ?


 


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Beershark

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 7:30 am

Quote: Trekwolf164 @ Mar. 05 2011, 6:39 am

>

>And the fighter pilots from Japan who flew one way missions  ?

>The religious extremist who straps bombs to its body and visits a mall ?

>


Logicaly speaking, these are suicides.


In the case of the Japanese pilots, and not to impune their honor, but their commanders knew that this a futile attempt, a desperate measure without hope of success. And They weren't actually fighter pilots. They were young men, children almost, with no flight experience, trained to do one thing. Fly their fuel laden , weaponless planes into American war ships.


Suicide bombers? Well that's just chickensh*t tactics. It's one thing to die for ones beliefs, it's quite another to live for them. And to kill for them? The koran specifically prohibits attacks against property, old people, children, women, basicaly anyone or anything other than a warrior adversary. the bible, new testament, prohibits violence in any form.  The cry of "God wills it!" has been the cause of more sensless deaths than anything else in history.


 


And in both cases, the taking of anothers life is the Primary goal. This negates the idea of self sacrifice.


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Matthias Russell

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 9:53 am

As in TWOK, Spock would only kill himself if it served a greater good.  For someone like Spock, there will always be something to do in learn.  he wouldn't end himself needlessly.

tamking

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 4:30 pm

Quote: Beershark @ Mar. 05 2011, 5:33 am

>

>Spock, in very logical fashion, makes a distinction between suicide and sacrifice. So, no he didn't actually commit suicidein TWOK, he did what he knew was necesary to save the ship and her crew. That is not suicide.

>I think not.

>


 


I agree, Spock did not commit suicide.  Yes, he knew he would die, but it was a sacrifice in order to save others.  Suicide is a selfish act, sacrifice is selfless.


Spock says, “The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one.” Spock was ready, willing and able to sacrifice himself for the crew.

toranaprem

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 10:06 pm

Honestly I think Spock was an incredibly depressed person for huge segments of his life.


I think as a younger man he -did- have suicidal tendancies that Bones alludes to in "Bread and Circuses":


McCoy: "You know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? You're more afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might slip and let your human half peek out. That's it, isn't it? Insecurity. Why, you wouldn't know what to do with a genuine, warm, decent feeling..."


I do think it was Spock's logical nature that prevented him from giving up on life entirely most days. The only justifiable way he could see of ending his own suffering was to do so in a manner that would serve the greater good.


Ironically, I think Spock was the happiest he had ever been when he actually does go willingly to his own death in TWOK. By then he had fully accepted his human half, and the depth of his feeling for Jim.


It makes his sacrifice in TWOK all the more poignant. It was an act of love for others, not an act of fear for himself.


After his resurrection in TSFS I think it was again his devotion to Kirk that pulled him through. As he tells Valeris in TUC his life on the Enterprise had been his paradise, and he seems so old and sad realizing that they are nearing the end.


I honestly don't know what kept him going in the many long years after Kirk's disappearance and death. Apparently he's managed to get some persective and emotional health in XI. I like to think he's planning to enter the Nexus for retirement!

janewayjunkie74656

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Report this Mar. 05 2011, 10:18 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Mar. 05 2011, 10:06 pm

>

>Honestly I think Spock was an incredibly depressed person for huge segments of his life.

>I think as a younger man he -did- have suicidal tendancies that Bones alludes to in "Bread and Circuses":

>McCoy: "You know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? You're more afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might slip and let your human half peek out. That's it, isn't it? Insecurity. Why, you wouldn't know what to do with a genuine, warm, decent feeling..."

>I do think it was Spock's logical nature that prevented him from giving up on life entirely most days. The only justifiable way he could see of ending his own suffering was to do so in a manner that would serve the greater good.

>Ironically, I think Spock was the happiest he had ever been when he actually does go willingly to his own death in TWOK. By then he had fully accepted his human half, and the depth of his feeling for Jim.

>It makes his sacrifice in TWOK all the more poignant. It was an act of love for others, not an act of fear for himself.

>After his resurrection in TSFS I think it was again his devotion to Kirk that pulled him through. As he tells Valeris in TUC his life on the Enterprise had been his paradise, and he seems so old and sad realizing that they are nearing the end.

>I honestly don't know what kept him going in the many long years after Kirk's disappearance and death. Apparently he's managed to get some persective and emotional health in XI. I like to think he's planning to enter the Nexus for retirement!

>


Wow, you gave me a lot to think about. Very good points.


 


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captain saavik

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 2:58 pm

Spock knows quite weel that he is too important to too many people (especially after TSFP) that the philisophical and sicological toll on his mind would tell him it's not only illogical but unwarrented he is accknowledged by his father (finaly) and is loved by just about everyone eles around him. Besides I love him too much he could never hurt me (I hope) to spock an 2takes


megan512

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Report this Mar. 06 2011, 5:53 pm

That's a really good question. I've never thought about that before. I don't think he would, though. Yeah, he has a pretty tough life, trying to hide his human half and all, but I don't think he would. I think it has to do with his loyalty to Kirk and the Enterprise. I think that he feels that's where he belongs, and although it's tough for him to keep his human side in check, I think that he had a lot to live for and wouldn't do something like committing suicide.


And it's completely illogical.


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Ziriath

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Report this Mar. 07 2011, 12:58 am

I think he would rather commit suicide, than, for example, get assimilated, coz it means the Borg could use his knowledge against his people. (But I think Spock would be a very nice drone) Or for some other logical reasons.


Spock is always curious, what will happen next and in the future, and knows there are many things he can do and where he would be useful and learn new things. So he, even if depressed, wouldn't give it up, till the situation demand it.


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Dixon Hill

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Report this Mar. 07 2011, 5:57 am

Spock often demonstrated a willingness (almost an eagerness) to die. Taking the shuttle to face the Giant Ameoba, and when he stole the thruster suit to face V'ger, alone, are only a couple of examples. I wonder if this is because of his being something of a misfit and an outcast? But Spock has no hesitations laying his life down, for science, the ship, Jim or any reason. He just needed the excuse to justify it.

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wissa

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Report this Mar. 07 2011, 5:32 pm

Quote: Dixon Hill @ Mar. 07 2011, 5:57 am

>Spock often demonstrated a willingness (almost an eagerness) to die. Taking the shuttle to face the Giant Ameoba, and when he stole the thruster suit to face V'ger, alone, are only a couple of examples. I wonder if this is because of his being something of a misfit and an outcast? But Spock has no hesitations laying his life down, for science, the ship, Jim or any reason. He just needed the excuse to justify it.


is it eagerness to die?  or was he arrogant enough to think he was the only one who could do these tasks?


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Beershark

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Report this Mar. 08 2011, 8:18 am

Quote: wissa @ Mar. 07 2011, 5:32 pm

Quote: Dixon Hill @ Mar. 07 2011, 5:57 am

>

>Spock often demonstrated a willingness (almost an eagerness) to die. Taking the shuttle to face the Giant Ameoba, and when he stole the thruster suit to face V'ger, alone, are only a couple of examples. I wonder if this is because of his being something of a misfit and an outcast? But Spock has no hesitations laying his life down, for science, the ship, Jim or any reason. He just needed the excuse to justify it.

is it eagerness to die?  or was he arrogant enough to think he was the only one who could do these tasks?


It was neither. Being willing to sacrafice ones self to save the lives of others it not exactly the same as being willing to die. It as nothing to do with eagerness nor arrogance. It's about honor.


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