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Which values was Enterprise representing - liberal or conservative?

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Created by: nrapo

nrapo

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Report this Feb. 28 2011, 2:54 am

Please don't lash out with political arguments. This is to measure the attitudes - whether people thought the show was leaning in any particular direction.

HisRoyalHighnessTheKing

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Report this Feb. 28 2011, 7:54 am

ENT featured no political values at all


Quite simply, neither Brannon Braga or Rick Berman are talented enough writers to add political depth or commentary to their teleplays.


May God Save The King

Sora

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Report this Feb. 28 2011, 8:27 am

I also never really thought of any of the series really trying to go towards one political party or the other. I've heard people say Enterprise was trying to mirror the conservatives and George Bush. But it's not anything I ever really read that much into.


I enjoy Star Trek for what it is, and I don't see much point in worrying about which political party it's trying to support.


 

chator56

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Report this Feb. 28 2011, 8:39 am

It kinda depended on the episode. In general, I think, Star Trek in the Berman/TNG era has tended to voice liberal opinions. I think the exception was the whole Xindi business in ENTERPRISE.

Sora

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Report this Feb. 28 2011, 8:11 pm

Quote: chator56 @ Feb. 28 2011, 8:39 am

>

>It kinda depended on the episode. In general, I think, Star Trek in the Berman/TNG era has tended to voice liberal opinions. I think the exception was the whole Xindi business in ENTERPRISE.

>


For the most part, I kinda have to agree with this. I haven't thought about much as I've said, but this thread got me onto to thinking about it. And for the most, Star Trek does tend to come across as being very liberal for the most part. But I think it's DS9 and Enterprise that might be more conservative, but that's only because both series deal with war and fighting for ones freedom from oppresion and also defending themselves from a race that wants them all dead. In most cases that's more of a conservative thing. Most of the time liberals just want peace, which is great in itself. I wish we could have peace with everyone, that would be awesome. But there's just some people that you simply can't make peace with because there are some out there who do want their enemies or people they consider to be their enemies dead, and there's nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. So I'm glad that DS9 and Enterprise showed that side of things. But I'm also glad TNG and VOY also show what can happen when there's peace. So we can see both sides of the issue with each of the series. TOS seems like it could go one way or the other depending on which episode it was.


Live Long and Prosper

nrapo

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Report this Mar. 01 2011, 2:48 am

Nicely said, Sora.


This poll is not really about party affiliation, but more about show's underlying philosophy. I am a libretarian with some conservative views and it always puzzled me when people whom I know to be very liberal or almost progressive/communist are drawn to the same shows.


They watch exactly the same story, but they see it in their own light. Where I see a crew of individuals with free will, ready to defend themselves when nessesary and not expecting people to do the right thing "just because", others see a well oiled machine of a crew where everyone does everything for the "better good" and where someone always knows what good for the rest of the people.


Basically, people who seek Utopia and "enlightened" humans, find it in the same shows I see the imperfect world and struggle for the freedom of the individual with consequences and responsibilities it implies.


The question is, how can this be?

Camorite

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Report this Mar. 01 2011, 4:17 am

does it really matter what politcal views the series followed? no offence intended nrapo, but you may not have wanted to start a political arguement, but you might just have to deal with one now that you have opened this can of beans.

Ghostmojo

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Report this Mar. 01 2011, 10:13 am

I don't think the original show represented political values other than those of Roddenberry. He was trying to get ideas past the censors, but that is a combination of artistry and subtlety. It is easy to look back at the 60s and say the show was obviously political since it commented upon things. But commentary is different to preaching. When presenting a future one has to be optimistic and hope for change that is better for all. That is not overtly political - just humanitarian in my view - although I guess some people would equate the two.


You can make obvious analogies about the Klingons/Russians etc. but these weren't big ideas. The show also dealt with race, age, religion, repression, etc. etc. - but generally just asking the audience to make up its own mind. The only really overt issues were in dealing with stuff like Nazis when one hopes the audience would see this as a bad thing. But then again - so, one would hope, would conservatives and liberals equally. We fought those nasty fascist guys together - putting our own relatively minor quibbles aside.


As for the later shows who can say? I don't see overt messages, but a similar line of questioning/juxtaposing as in TOS. I think Enterprise followed the same logic.


to boldy go where no man has gone before

lostshaker

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Report this Mar. 01 2011, 11:52 am

It's very important to view each series in the context of its time. For example, TOS with its multiracial crew was considered liberal in the 60's. Nichelle Nichols has discussed how women on set loved the short skirt uniforms and other revealing outfits. The 60's was a reaction to the conservative era preceeding it. In the 90's, I had a teacher that cited Star Trek as sexist for those very same outfits!! And I CHALLENGED that example in class. Perspectives change from decade to decade.

Sora

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Report this Mar. 01 2011, 5:40 pm

Quote: nrapo @ Mar. 01 2011, 2:48 am

>

>Nicely said, Sora.

>This poll is not really about party affiliation, but more about show's underlying philosophy. I am a libretarian with some conservative views and it always puzzled me when people whom I know to be very liberal or almost progressive/communist are drawn to the same shows.

>They watch exactly the same story, but they see it in their own light. Where I see a crew of individuals with free will, ready to defend themselves when nessesary and not expecting people to do the right thing "just because", others see a well oiled machine of a crew where everyone does everything for the "better good" and where someone always knows what good for the rest of the people.

>Basically, people who seek Utopia and "enlightened" humans, find it in the same shows I see the imperfect world and struggle for the freedom of the individual with consequences and responsibilities it implies.

>The question is, how can this be?

>


 


Yeah I can see you point. And personally, I tend to be very right winged. I'm a proud Republican. And like I said, I think between all the series there is a good balance between republican and democrat views.


Perhaps in that sense you could say Star Trek represented Moderate views? Since it has some of both?


But I do like the idea, of having the philosphy and allowing each viewer to draw their own conclusions, rather than have a series that says, here's the problem, here's the answer. Star Trek is a show that says, here's the problem, what do you think the right answer is? I like how Star Trek makes you think. And I like that it doesn't appear to be biased towards either party, but shows both sides.


Live Long and Prosper

nrapo

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Report this Mar. 02 2011, 2:06 am

Quote: Camorite @ Mar. 01 2011, 4:17 am

>

>does it really matter what politcal views the series followed? no offence intended nrapo, but you may not have wanted to start a political arguement, but you might just have to deal with one now that you have opened this can of beans.

>


Political side of this have been discussed in other threads over and over. I am just interested in the overall feeling about the philosophical direction of the show, without the details. Throwing people out of the airlocks and kicking space ass has been chewed on for years. 


Peace through superior firepower....

nrapo

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Report this Mar. 02 2011, 2:30 am

Quote: Ghostmojo @ Mar. 01 2011, 10:13 am

>

>I don't think the original show represented political values other than those of Roddenberry. He was trying to get ideas past the censors, but that is a combination of artistry and subtlety. It is easy to look back at the 60s and say the show was obviously political since it commented upon things. But commentary is different to preaching. When presenting a future one has to be optimistic and hope for change that is better for all. That is not overtly political - just humanitarian in my view - although I guess some people would equate the two.

>


Original show combined the silliness of the 60th and Rodenberry's vision.


However, Next Generation was very liberal. Remember, when they started, they were one happy society without money, they didn't eat meat, the human/alien collective worked towards better good and everybody went into professions they loved (that's Marx, by the way). In the very first show, they proved to Q that humanity changed and advanced. Federation headquarters are in Paris and San Francisco and their logo looks like it was designed by UN. It is described as post-capitalist Utopian society. As they progressed in seasons, they got a bit more realistic about the human nature.


DS9 was a good show, with much better developed characters and more complex, darker storylines. It was not the syrupy concoction like Next Gen. Voyager was pretty good - enterntaining and engaging, somewhat feminist and politically pretty neutral.


Post 9/11 Enterprise had a completely different feel and kicked ass, once they figured out the direction for the show, none of that "let's hug everybody all the time and hope they will hug us back". It also showed how imperfect federation was, and how prickly Vulcans started off. 


Peace through superior firepower....

nrapo

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Report this Mar. 02 2011, 2:45 am

Quote: Sora @ Mar. 01 2011, 5:40 pm

>

>Yeah I can see you point. And personally, I tend to be very right winged. I'm a proud Republican. And like I said, I think between all the series there is a good balance between republican and democrat views.

>Perhaps in that sense you could say Star Trek represented Moderate views? Since it has some of both?

>


I don't think it is about Republicans or Democrats. It is a bit about conservative and liberal, but mostly about progressive (overbearing know it all managing structure with compliant collective acting for the better good) or libertarian (individual oriented, personal responsibility, freedom of choice which implies freedom to live with consequences).


Each Trek show is a different mix of values. I guess that is why everybody finds something. This is also why some people love Next Generation, but cannot stand Enterprise. It is not just the look and feel, it is also the proportions in that mix of values.


Peace through superior firepower....

Ghostmojo

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Report this Mar. 02 2011, 3:59 pm

Quote: nrapo @ Mar. 02 2011, 2:30 am

>

>Post 9/11 Enterprise had a completely different feel and kicked ass,

>


As John Cleese once memorably quipped - "everything is always bottoms with you Americans!"


to boldy go where no man has gone before

Ghostmojo

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Report this Mar. 02 2011, 4:04 pm

I find it very strange that people should look at it that way. Is that how you define yourself by allegiance to one cranky political party of another?


Star Trek, Roddenberry's vison, the Vulcan IDIC etc. - it's got to be more about individuality and expression, about tolerance and freedom of opinion and so on. Sticking rigidly with an organisation - especially something as morally hypocritical and bereft of dignity as say the Republican Party in the USA seems to me to be light years away from Trek principles.


I look at the Star Trek (certainly the best stuff) as great storytelling that is both uplifting and assertive of human values - not political ones ...

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