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Yesteryear

Six of Nine

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Report this May. 22 2011, 12:17 pm

I rewatched it better than i thought.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 22 2011, 8:04 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Apr. 29 2011, 8:26 pm

>

>

>Do they ever learn not to time travel for observation purposes?

>They say the Andorian first officer has been Kirk's first officer for 5 years? Kirk hasn't been in command of the ship for 5 years.

>I like the Andorian- Commander Thalen. He sets the foundation for Andorians being honorable, family-driven warriors.

>Spock says he is journeying to the family shrine to honor their gods. Do the Vulcans still worship gods?

>This episode does an excellent job giving background to Spock and Sarek's relationship as well as Spock in general. They show his salat, love it!!!

>This is definitely a great one for Spock fans.

>
Because Vger hasn't done it, I'll nit pick this one!


They say the Andorian first officer has been Kirk's first officer for 5 years? Kirk hasn't been in command of the ship for 5 years.


- We could assume that since Spock is dead, Kirk pulls off his Kobyashi Maru trick without a hitch (as shown in Star Trek 2009), thus allowing Kirk to rise through the ranks in the Prime reality faster. Maybe that way he reach Captency of enterprise or another ship before it, and has had Thalen as his first officer for that long.


I like the Andorian- Commander Thalen. He sets the foundation for Andorians being honorable, family-driven warriors.


- You should have said I LOVE the Andorian Cmdr.


Spock says he is journeying to the family shrine to honor their gods. Do the Vulcans still worship gods?


- A good catch, since I hadn't thought about it, nor do I know the answer. i can only assume that since it's not been long since Archer retrived Surak's teachings (not long relative to Vulcan life spans)  there are new facets in Vulcan life still being worked out at this time.


Easily I think this is the best thing that came out of TAS and perhaps the only episode that surpasses TOS.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this May. 23 2011, 5:52 am

The Maru instance in ST09 isn't the same as how he would have done it in the prime universe since Kirk had a different childhood.  In prime universe, he no doubt entered the academy at 18, wanting to be like his father until waiting to enroll when prompted to by Pike.  We know before the Menagerie, Kirk only met Pike once before, when he took command of the enterprise.  So nothing in ST09 really applies.


 


And, yes, LOVED Thalen.


guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 23 2011, 4:31 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 23 2011, 5:52 am

>

>The Maru instance in ST09 isn't the same as how he would have done it in the prime universe since Kirk had a different childhood.  In prime universe, he no doubt entered the academy at 18, wanting to be like his father until waiting to enroll when prompted to by Pike.  We know before the Menagerie, Kirk only met Pike once before, when he took command of the enterprise.  So nothing in ST09 really applies.

>And, yes, LOVED Thalen.

>
I can see the validity in what you're saying of course, specially with all the "liberties" Star Trek tales with the canon, from wrong ages, to ship sizes. And yeah, Kirk's childhood is totally backwards with his father's death...but with so many ex girlfirend's and Kirk's apple-eating way of telling the tale in the Genesis Cave, I see no reason why The Maru test would be so different in the Prime reality. There's really no canon to contradict the thought; plus the way Kirk talks about it, almost looks like how a mature, responsable individual (such as Admiral Kirk in this stage of his life) reacts to his immature youthful self, almost ashamed perhaps of being so bold?


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

SLagonia

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Report this May. 23 2011, 8:36 pm

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ May. 23 2011, 4:31 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 23 2011, 5:52 am

>

>

>The Maru instance in ST09 isn't the same as how he would have done it in the prime universe since Kirk had a different childhood.  In prime universe, he no doubt entered the academy at 18, wanting to be like his father until waiting to enroll when prompted to by Pike.  We know before the Menagerie, Kirk only met Pike once before, when he took command of the enterprise.  So nothing in ST09 really applies.

>And, yes, LOVED Thalen.

>
I can see the validity in what you're saying of course, specially with all the "liberties" Star Trek tales with the canon, from wrong ages, to ship sizes. And yeah, Kirk's childhood is totally backwards with his father's death...but with so many ex girlfirend's and Kirk's apple-eating way of telling the tale in the Genesis Cave, I see no reason why The Maru test would be so different in the Prime reality. There's really no canon to contradict the thought; plus the way Kirk talks about it, almost looks like how a mature, responsable individual (such as Admiral Kirk in this stage of his life) reacts to his immature youthful self, almost ashamed perhaps of being so bold?


The problem is that the new movie completely missed the point of Kirk cheating on the test.  In general, Kirk's character got the royal shaft in that movie.  It's pretty clear none of them understood him in the slightest.


In Wrath of Khan, Kirk cheated on the test because that was his solution.  Remember, the point of the test is to test the character of the taker.  How you react to the scenerio is the test, not whether or not the ship survives or you rescue the freighter.  If you become dejected and can't cope with the idea, you're not command matierial.  If you shake it off and don't give it much thought, you need to mature signifigantly before youcan be given command, etc.  Kirk simply would not accept defeat, and did what he would do for the rest of his career - If he couldn't win, then he'd change things so he could.  When he was completely outgunned in The Corbomite Manuver, did he accept the no-win scenerio, or did he change the conditions of the mission through a brilliant poker bluff?  When faced with capture and certain death over genesis, did he guve up, or did he invite the boarding party to their death while he evacuated the ship?  Kirk doesn't lose, he changes the conditions until he can win.


Pine's Kirk on the other hand did it because he could.  There was no reason for what he did other than he wanted to beat the test no one else could beat.  His only argument was that the test was a cheat, so he cheated back.  This is why Kirk Prime got a medal and Reboot Kirk got suspended.


"If it doesn't work, paint it." -Unofficial Motto of the Starfleet Border Patrol -------- "Speak for the unheard, secure the vulnerable, bring light to the dark, fight for those who cannot" -Real motto of The Starfleet Border Patrol

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 23 2011, 9:13 pm

Ah man, I'm more alone in this than I thought. And to be honest, I'd much rather side with you guys than keep defending the Nokia, Car-Drving-Off-A-Cliff Kirk, but it's a good excercise in debate to defend something you don't really feel that approving of.


You are looking at it too subjectively SLagonia. Again, this is Prime Kirk feeling old. That's one of the sub plots of the movie, so I feel must of his reflecting comes from a different point of view than a cadet Kirk would have had. Also, as fans, we completely know what the point of the test is and know why Prime Kirk cheated, but there's no evidence to that he wasn't feeling damn good about himself for coming up with a solution to an unwinable scenario. Following TWOK dialogue, we know Kirk beat the scenario; that he never faced death; and that he simply did not believe in a no win scenario. The scne from the movie pretty much shows all of this.


As for the medal vs the suspention, I doubt Prime Kirk got called up by the Academy head and said "Nice job, here's a medal!" No, there would have been a hearing like we saw where eventually his argument was accepted. Also, we never see the ending of the hearing because of Nero's attack, so we can't say he was suspended because of that. he was suspended because an emergency popped up and the board couldn't rule at the moment on his case, not as a result of the Maru test. Finally, McCoy's comment that the board would most likely rule in Kirk's favor is pretty much a nod to the fans who know TWOK that thing's happened as Kirk narrated them.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 24 2011, 4:10 am

The key differences of the Kirks to me is this:  we are all a product of a combination of nature and nurture.  Both Kirks are the same genetically but ST09 Kirk was raised without his father by a step father who apparently didn't like him.  At their core, the 2 Kirks are different because they were nurtured differently in different environments.  If you have a twin, but you were seperated at birth and he was raised in China, the 2 of you would be different people.  We can't judge one Kirk by the other or expect them to make the same decisions.  They clearly didn't since they entered the academy at different times and for different reasons.


 


I have a similar problem with Yesteryear; both suffer from the Butterfly Effect.  When Spock goes back and a traumatic thing changes, him causeing the death of a beloved pet, the Spocks would have diverged at that point.  He changed his history and the one change probably would have had major consequences. 


This is why I hate time travel stories.


Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 24 2011, 5:41 am

Not to mention pink tribbles and purple Klingon uniforms.  I seriously don't understand how a color blind person can do a job where interpreting color is so important.  I have color blind friends and they aren't ashamed to ask color questions like if their clothes match.

greenlantern8

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Report this May. 24 2011, 1:44 pm

This is my favorite one of the TAS episodes.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 24 2011, 1:57 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 24 2011, 5:41 am

>

>Not to mention pink tribbles and purple Klingon uniforms.  I seriously don't understand how a color blind person can do a job where interpreting color is so important.  I have color blind friends and they aren't ashamed to ask color questions like if their clothes match.

>
I've always wondered bout that. If you see the interviews on the DVD, it looks like the some of the higher ups at Filmation knew that he was colorblind. if that's the case wouldn't you want to at least, supervise what he's doing every know and then? And if they didn't, it's really a rather hefty slip in profesionalism for them.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Matthias Russell

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Report this May. 25 2011, 4:25 am

Yep.  The color choices alone gave the show less adult and fan appeal.  it is one of the things you have to look past to see the quality of the show.

guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 25 2011, 5:19 pm

It's funny, but I never had as big of a problem with the pink Klingon uniforms as I did with the Robin Hood-like Romulan unifomrs, and the fact that there were two different Romulan uniforms in this show. Talk about inconsistency...


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Trekwolf164

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Report this May. 26 2011, 5:24 am

Quote: Matthias Russell @ May. 24 2011, 4:10 am

>

>The key differences of the Kirks to me is this:  we are all a product of a combination of nature and nurture.  Both Kirks are the same genetically but ST09 Kirk was raised without his father by a step father who apparently didn't like him.  At their core, the 2 Kirks are different because they were nurtured differently in different environments.  If you have a twin, but you were seperated at birth and he was raised in China, the 2 of you would be different people.  We can't judge one Kirk by the other or expect them to make the same decisions.  They clearly didn't since they entered the academy at different times and for different reasons.

>I have a similar problem with Yesteryear; both suffer from the Butterfly Effect.  When Spock goes back and a traumatic thing changes, him causeing the death of a beloved pet, the Spocks would have diverged at that point.  He changed his history and the one change probably would have had major consequences. 

>This is why I hate time travel stories.

>


The Sehlat dying was an important lesson and both Spock's experienced it at the same moment.


The young Spock learned important information from Older Spock.


Older Spock saw how love can drive a being to protect another at all costs .


Spock's solution in  TWOK ?


 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this May. 26 2011, 7:33 am

Before Spock went back in time he said he remembered the visit of a cousin (who was Spock all along) but when Spock goes back, all things work out the same but the Sehlet dies.  So young Spock always was going to learn the right lessons.  But this time Spock did something different, the death of the Sehlet may have caused Spock to choose a different path in life than when the cat didn't die and Spock joined Starfleet. 


guillermo.mejía

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Report this May. 26 2011, 3:34 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>

>Two different Romulan uniforms? In which episode(s)?

>


What they call Type B in Memory Alpha, from 'The Practical Joker'



What they call Type C in Memory Alpha, from 'The Survivor'


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

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