2takesfrakes GROUP: Members POSTS: 3472 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 11:33 am
I've been under the impression for quite a while, that NASA dismissed the International Space Station as a white elephant and couldn't wait to get out of its obligations to it. Leaving it to ESA, JAXA, etc.
So, I'm a little confused on why buying rides with the Russians to that very same station is so attractive? Is it just to give our astronauts something to do?
Growing large crystals and doing taste tests for Coca Cola doesn't seem to justify the expense. After a few Russian rides, we could've afforded a brand new shuttle!
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Matthias Russell GROUP: Members POSTS: 7705 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 11:50 am
NASA LOVES the ISS. The crew had the time and resources to perform the best scientific research they've ever been able to do. NASA hates losing the shuttle because now the ISS had no way of receiving large payloads and worse, no way of sending home large payloads. The only vehicle that will be able to send things back safely is Soyuz. Progress, HTV, and ATV all are one way only; they are filled with trash when they leave to burn up in the atmosphere. Also, Russia is charging a premium for seats and is now raising the cost per seat because they have no competition. Add to that Soyuz carries 3 and Shuttle carries 7. Americans will be paying just as much, but into a foreign economy and they have to because the ISS came with a treaty where the Americans vowed to keep it staffed at all times.
NASA always wanted a station. They wanted it instead of moon trips, that was a political decision. They've always known before we can enter deep space, we need to study long term effects on the human body and establish a port. Unfortunately, the ISS is no port, it is an outpost. That is because politicians and the public don't understand the value of space exploration. That is why the NASA budget is an anemic joke.
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Trekwolf164 GROUP: Members POSTS: 32043 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 1:32 pm
To bad we were leaders in space exploration, now we are tourists.
The Soviets and China will be the first on Mars and beyound.
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The Master GROUP: Members POSTS: 404 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 1:44 pm
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Trekwolf164 GROUP: Members POSTS: 32043 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 1:54 pm
Yes the guys we are paying to take a tourist in the Soyuz to ISS
Russians ,Ruskies, Commies, Red menace what ever they like to be called these days
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Matthias Russell GROUP: Members POSTS: 7705 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 4:42 pm
The American space program has always been reactionary. The first satellite, man in space, and moon landing all occurred as a reaction to soviet leads. The soave program will suffer until the Chinese are ahead.
America has gotten lazy. Defense projects are the only things that stay ahead of the curve instead of always trying to catch up.
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Lieutenant_Jedi GROUP: Members POSTS: 1728 |
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Mar. 14 2011, 9:39 pm
Quote: Matthias Russell @ Mar. 14 2011, 4:42 pm | >The American space program has always been reactionary. The first satellite, man in space, and moon landing all occurred as a reaction to soviet leads. The soave program will suffer until the Chinese are ahead. America has gotten lazy. Defense projects are the only things that stay ahead of the curve instead of always trying to catch up. |
So MR - give us some ideas. How does NASA remake its image?
"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"
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lnagr1 GROUP: Members POSTS: 1392 |
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Mar. 15 2011, 1:27 am
Im actually quite disappointed in NASA for not focusing so much anymore on the space program
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Matthias Russell GROUP: Members POSTS: 7705 |
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Mar. 15 2011, 4:23 am
That isn't NASA, that is the politicians pulling the strings. Charlie Bolden, the administrator and former astronaut, told us when he was appointed that as a Marine he has always had a boss and always done as his boss told him to. Bush instituted a crappy program but it was capable and had excellent ambitions. However, he failed to fund it properly destinying it to linger along at an ineffective pace. When Obama got elected, he instituted a review under the Augustine Committee which published excellent suggestions. Obama ignored all of them, scrapped Constellation and replaced it with nothing. He put a choice for direction in 2014, which would quite possibly be another administration. Meanwhile the senators fight over nasa one way or the other about matters they can't understand with the training they have. Every 4 years, NASA it's given conflicting agendas.
The failure with NASA is the politicians. This is an engineering and scientific organization. For NASA to be effective, the politicians need to assign a budget, then shut up, take their hands off and let the academics and engineers within steer the administration. Then, no matter the budget, meaningful projects will come about.
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Matthias Russell GROUP: Members POSTS: 7705 |
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Mar. 15 2011, 6:44 am
Fresh from Russia:
The Associated Press reports, "The Russians are hiking the price of rocket rides again for US astronauts - to nearly $63 million (per seat)." The higher price for 12 launches to the International Space Station starts in 2014. "NASA officials say inflation is the reason for the latest price increase." The article notes NASA Administrator Charles Bolden "says it's critical for US companies to take over this transportation job."
In an article for "Space Review", consultant James Oberg wrote about last October's launch of an upgraded Soyuz that was a "shakedown cruise" of how Russia may report issues when NASA will be more dependant on the country for launches after the shuttle program ends. After problems occurred during launch, Oberg noted there were only some mentions in the following months and "rumors" that turned out to be true but denied at the time by Russian officials. Oberg detailed the issues, how he learned of the issues, and how NASA denied him a report by astronaut Scott Kelly about the spacecraft when he filed a FOIA request. To Oberg, "until a more transparent culture is put in place, there is no reason to have any confidence that the full extent of specific risks is being made known to the appropriate decision makers on the US side."
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Trekwolf164 GROUP: Members POSTS: 32043 |
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Mar. 15 2011, 6:45 am
Sounds logical
Can't happen in human affairs
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Treknoir GROUP: Members POSTS: 1782 |
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Mar. 15 2011, 9:27 am
Quote: Matthias Russell @ Mar. 15 2011, 4:23 am | >The failure with NASA is the politicians. This is an engineering and scientific organization. For NASA to be effective, the politicians need to assign a budget, then shut up, take their hands off and let the academics and engineers within steer the administration. Then, no matter the budget, meaningful projects will come about. |
Let's keep it real, politicians blow with the wind and the government is probably too bureaucratic for the real risk and long-term investment that comes along with space exploration. Then, you throw in a fickle populace who aren't generally science-minded (because the space race really was about beating the commies after Sputnik's launch in 1957 more than it was about exploration) and a craptacular economy and these are the types of the decisions that will be made. I don't fault Bush or Obama who realistically have to deal with folks wanting to know where the money is going. People like us who can wax poetic about the benefits of space exploration and can think long-term are drowned out by the joe Dirts who aren't impressed with shuttle launches to nowhere (which the ISS really is).
Perhaps it is time that private industry/academia took the lead in space exploration, with goverment being a distant third partner. These groups have the luxury to think long-term and don't have to be beholden to public expectations.
Look at what Sir Richard Branson is doing: http://www.virgingalactic.com/
I also think NASA will continue to play a pivotal, though less risky, role in unmanned exploration for the short-term. My goodness, look at what has been accomplished already:
Voyager 1 and 2 are headed toward the edge of the solar system: http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/
Galileo's exploration of Jupiter: http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/galileo/mission/index.cfm
My personal fave, Cassini-Huygens and Saturn: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/overview/
Mars Rover Mission: http://marsrover.nasa.gov/home/
And HUBBLE! http://hubble.nasa.gov/
Yeah, NASA's direction, funding, and space program sucks right now, but all is not lost.
It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock
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Matthias Russell GROUP: Members POSTS: 7705 |
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Mar. 15 2011, 3:51 pm
The ISS is not a "nowhere", no more than the Scott-Amundson South Pole station. It produces excellent science and a lot of human biology studies that are helpful on earth. The lessons learned in it will also prove valuable when humanity is ready to taked manned space seriously. However NASA does a terrible job telling this to the public.
They need to fire their entire PR department and find people who know how to talk and sell to the public.
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Treknoir GROUP: Members POSTS: 1782 |
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Mar. 16 2011, 4:14 pm
Quote: Matthias Russell @ Mar. 15 2011, 3:51 pm | >
>The ISS is not a "nowhere", no more than the Scott-Amundson South Pole station. It produces excellent science and a lot of human biology studies that are helpful on earth. The lessons learned in it will also prove valuable when humanity is ready to taked manned space seriously. However NASA does a terrible job telling this to the public.
> They need to fire their entire PR department and find people who know how to talk and sell to the public.
> |
Sorry, I disagree. I didn't say it wasn't useful or that it was a waste of time and money. Maybe I'm just being cynical, but it's easier to hype a mission to the moon or Mars or someplace other than low Earth orbit.
It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want. - Spock
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Matthias Russell GROUP: Members POSTS: 7705 |
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Mar. 17 2011, 6:00 am
Granted, such expeditions are more exciting. Skylab suffered the same problem, it wasn't as exciting as Apollo. However, it provided much more useful science to the common man.
That is why politicians need to not have a powerful voice in NASA direction. Politicians want to excite people to get reelected and don't care about or understand which programs actually are the best investment for society. They also want something ready to go in 4 years.
Before we leap beyond Earth's orbital space, we need an orbital terminal or drydock. We've known that since von Braun. No one wants a moon base more than me, but that outpost will yield little if we don't first have a transfer point in LEO.
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