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best trek couple

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Created by: Camorite

toranaprem

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 4:30 pm

Btw, the Theodore Sturgeon story to which I am referring is entitled "The World Well Lost" which was published in 1953, to an enormous amount of hostility, of course. Interestingly enough, Sturgeon himself was straight, but he had an enormous capacity for understanding love in all its myriad forms.

"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

2takesfrakes

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 5:44 pm

Riker WAS deeply infatuated with Minuet.
But their "relationship" was very "thin."
The actress playing her was scrumptious,
but there was nothing shown that validated
her special place in his heart - other than
that it was simply "in the script."

toranaprem

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 5:52 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

>Kira and Odo were a very good intellectual and emotional match but where was it ever going to go? Odo had so much trouble creating his nose so it was probably never going to be physical. But Kira seemed OK with it. Perhaps this was an unselfish truer sort of love. Chakotay and Seven was so unexpected so sudden. It seemed so forced to me. I would have preferred perhaps Janeway and Chakotay. And what are 'real couples' anyway? Its all just fiction and open to interpretation isn't it? Should we include Riker's and Kirk's one-night stands into consideration? How about Kirk and Edith? Riker and Minuet?
In Odo's defense, he had no problem creating a tongue, and you know, hands,  which are far more imporant physical qualities in a lover, if you ask me. Depends on what Kira really enjoyed about sex anyway.


Chakotay and Seven were crap. I think it should have been Seven and the Doctor. I agree with you on the "real couples" being an ephemeral concept at best. Personally,I think of a couple as two people who have a romantic love for one another over an extended period of time. I think Kirk was genuinely in love with Edith Keeler but she died before they ever became a "couple" (if you ask me). He confesses his love for her to Spock, not Edith after all.


From what I recall, TOS only shows Kirk having sex three times. With Mirimanee when he's suffering from amnesia, with Deela who was holding him captive at the time, and with the slave girl Drusilla, again when he was a prisoner. You could argue for Kirk having been a couple with Ruth, Carol Marcus, Janice Lester, Janet Wallace, and Areel Shaw, but there's no canonical evidence for whether these were single dates, one-night stands, relationships lasting weeks, months or years. All we know is that Kirk was involved with Ruth when he was 19, that David was born when he was 28, and at some point before he was 30 he was in some way involved with all the aforementioned women. And then in the novelization of TMP, we learn Kirk was in a relationship with Lori Ciani (who he pretty much resents, when he comes to realize that she's an emotional rebound for the Enterprise that he curiously gave up when Spock quit Starfleet...so then she's promptly killed in its malfunctioning transporter along with the Vulcan science officer he's trying to replace Spock with).


But seriously, I don't think a one-night stand, or an infatuation that ends abrubtly does a couple make.


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

Camorite

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 6:01 pm

Consider "Amok Time", where Spock's mating urge is quelled by the grief that he has killed Kirk.


though there is much that i don't agree with on what you are saying (and agian it is not becauce of any intolerance for people that choose to live a homosexual lifestyle) but the above was what really caught my eye, as it is inconsistant to what we now know of the Vulcan mateing rituals. that being that it was the fight to the death, which was also explained in that episode, that quelled Spock's mating earge, not the fact that he killed kirk. this grief was shown moments later when he told T'Pau that he would niether live long and prosper, as he had killed his captain and his friend.


And you might say that that line is just further proof on what you are saying, but i will tell you that niether Nimoy or Shatner took it as meaning anything but the level of freindship that thier characters had.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 6:08 pm

You could argue for Kirk having been a couple with Ruth, Carol Marcus, Janice Lester, Janet Wallace, and Areel Shaw,


I don't know about the others, but there was definatly more of a back story between Kirk and Carol Marcus, as, in the original script for Trek 6, he was supposed be summoned to starfleet for that briefing he was with Carol, and in, what i assume would have been a deleted scene in Generations, one of his visions in the Nexus was a wedding between him and Carol. So there was defiantly more of a story there then they were letting on.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

toranaprem

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 6:23 pm

With all due respect, while Nimoy and Shatner have a lot of wise things to say about the characters that they brought to life, television is a collaborative art, and the writers, directors, and Gene Roddenberry himself also had a great deal to say about what we saw on the screen.

Nimoy has signed K/S art for fans, and has no problem with the interpretation, even if it wasn't something he and Shatner were consciously trying to act out. The do acknowledge that they have an incredible chemistry however, and that Shatner flirts with everything that moves. Shatner's currently teasing Nimoy on when he's going to start taking naked pictures of Bill for a photo collection.

I'm confused by your interpretation of what transpires in Amok Time, considering the fact that we are expressly told that Spock must return home to mate or die, not kill a man or die. The rite of koon-ut-kali-fee is required because T'Pring has challenged the bond because she wants to be with Stonn instead of Spock. She chooses Kirk because if he won he would not want her, and if Kirk lost, Spock would not want her. Either way neither man would want her and she would be free to be with Stonn. Basically, she played Spock with logic.

At the end of the episode McCoy assumes that Spock must have got some action, but a bemused Spock explains that it was the combat itself that somehow cured his madness (i.e. wrestling around with Kirk and strangling him to death), implying that it was not how these things are supposed to work. If it was pon farr would be a compulsion to beat something to death or die, not a biological need to spawn.

"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

toranaprem

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Report this Jan. 05 2011, 6:42 pm

Also, I just want to assure you that I do not assume someone is homophobic because they do not see the Kirk/Spock relationship the same way I do. I just want to defend the canonical legitimacy of my own interpretation of the narrative we were given.


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

jairtorres

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Report this Jan. 06 2011, 12:57 am

Obrien and Keiko just always seemed so believable.  If Troi could sense thoughts and feelings then she would have hated every man on that ship. 

Camorite

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Report this Jan. 06 2011, 4:13 am

I'm confused by your interpretation of what transpires in Amok Time, considering the fact that we are expressly told that Spock must return home to mate or die, not kill a man or die.


This is not in debate, as it is the basis behind the Pon'Far that if a Vulcan does not get to his mate in time they will both die (if you havn't already done so you should read Vulcan's Heart, it is a wonderful story that goes into detail about that time of the decade for Spock and Savaak, who is his mate in the story).


The rite of koon-ut-kali-fee is required because T'Pring has challenged the bond because she wants to be with Stonn instead of Spock.


I fail to see your point here, as we all know that if Spock does not either mate with T'Pring or fight the one that challenges his, for lack of better term, claim to her, he will die just as assuradly as if he had not made it back to Vulcan in the first place.


She chooses Kirk because if he won he would not want her, and if Kirk lost, Spock would not want her. Either way neither man would want her and she would be free to be with Stonn. Basically, she played Spock with logic.


So where is your confusion at, as you seem to understand the ritual, as well as the circumstances behind what happened in that episode, pretty well. If anything i should be the one that is confused as i have no idea what point you are trying to make here.


With all due respect, while Nimoy and Shatner have a lot of wise things to say about the characters that they brought to life, television is a collaborative art, and the writers, directors, and Gene Roddenberry himself also had a great deal to say about what we saw on the screen.


And with all due respect, i have already expressed my opinion on this subject. this thread is about traditional couples, whether they are homo or heterosexual, or whether they are pure human or mixed. And despite what you have said i just don't see anything but a strong freindship or brotherhood between Kirk and Spock, which in no way falls under either of the descriptions that i stated. i suggest that we just drop it, as neither of us will convince the other that they are either right or wrong.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

killerlampofdoom

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Report this Jan. 06 2011, 6:25 am

um i would have to say a tie between Paris and torres and worf and jadzia

trekhed68

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Report this Jan. 06 2011, 7:02 am

Wow, what a great poll! I don't think anyone has ever done a "best Trek couple" poll--at least not on this site.


Paris & Torres were a great couple. I also enjoyed the sexual tension in the Picard-Crusher relationship, and would like to have seen that explored a bit further.


For my money, though, the best Trek couple has got to be the Riker-Troi relationship, if only because it parallels (in some ways) the relationship between me and my wife. Like Riker and Troi, my wife and I first met a number of years ago, then separated for several years, then got back together again.


"Those who would sacrifice essential Liberty in order to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

toranaprem

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Report this Jan. 06 2011, 3:28 pm

This is not in debate, as it is the basis behind the Pon'Far that if a Vulcan does not get to his mate in time they will both die (if you havn't already done so you should read Vulcan's Heart, it is a wonderful story that goes into detail about that time of the decade for Spock and Savaak, who is his mate in the story).


It seemed that it was in debate because you said this: that being that it was the fight to the death, which was also explained in that episode, that quelled Spock's mating earge, not the fact that he killed kirk. This statement implies that you believe it was the act of killing someone, anyone, that cured him, or that simply fighting with the intention to kill is enough. Again, even if that were the case how is fighting not then a stand in for sex if it can also cure the need to mate?


I personally have no interest in Vulcan's Heart because the Spock/Saavik being bondmates storyline disgusts me. I see what happened between them in Star Trek III as a tragic thing for Saavik. I think she saw Spock as a kind of surrogate father, and that the act of love she did for him on Genesis was so painful for her because it was essentially a sex act with a man she deeply loved, but a man she loved like a father. Talk about messed up. I mean, does Spock  even acknowledge her after the fal-tor-pan? No. The only one he recognizes is his t'hy'la Jim. I'm sick to death of storylines that try to pretend every sexual encounter between a male and female is romantic. Sometimes such things are just sad. I'm interested in reading Unspoken Truth by Margaret Wander Bonanno because I believe this is the interpretation she makes.


One more thing on this. Originally it was only Vulcan MALES who went into pon farr. T'Pring was going to be fine. I greatly prefer this interpretation. Sturgeon is famous for playing with gender and sexuality in his works, and he intended pon farr to be something that only Vulcan males were subjected to, the way only human females are subjected to hormones during PMS. I didn't enjoy Enterprise, and the way they distorted canon, and the way some authors have distorted it in their books on that issue annoys me.


I fail to see your point here, as we all know that if Spock does not either mate with T'Pring or fight the one that challenges his, for lack of better term, claim to her, he will die just as assuradly as if he had not made it back to Vulcan in the first place.


The rite of koon-ut-kali-fee only occurs when the bond made in childhood is CHALLENGED. If the bond isn't challenged there is no fight to the death, they simply mate. When it is challenged, either by a rival male, or the prospective bride who wishes to free herself from the bond, it MUST be a fight to the death because the price for the male in pon farr is always death if he loses. This is a matter of fairness that must be accepted by she who wishes to challenge the bond. It is only fair that the female who wishes to leave a man who will die if he cannot mate with her risk her own life, or that of her lover/champion in the trade, because for the one in pon farr death is certain either way if he cannot win, as you have said. Fighting to the death has nothing to do with curing the blood fever, it is the risk the challenger must take to justify letting another be killed by the pon farr. Somehow, mysteriously, Spock is confused because the moment he held Kirk's limp corpse in his hands the urge to mate was sated. Thus Sturgeon's homoerotic subtext.


So where is your confusion at, as you seem to understand the ritual, as well as the circumstances behind what happened in that episode, pretty well. If anything i should be the one that is confused as i have no idea what point you are trying to make here.


What I'm trying to point out is that T'Pring bent the rules of koon-ut-kali-fee to her benefit through logic. The bride is allowed to pick any champion, but in Vulcan culture it was assumed that she would have picked her lover Stonn to win her. But T'Pring figured out that if she picked the captain she knew Spock cared for so deeply he would let the blood fever kill him rather than mate with her in his shame and grief. And if Kirk killed his friend Spock....well, it never would have happened since against Spock he was seriously unmatched....but even if he somehow did, of course Kirk wouldn't want her. This is why Spock commends her on her use of logic, and yet cruelly tells her that often times "having a thing is not so pleasing a thing as wanting".


And with all due respect, i have already expressed my opinion on this subject. this thread is about traditional couples, whether they are homo or heterosexual, or whether they are pure human or mixed. And despite what you have said i just don't see anything but a strong freindship or brotherhood between Kirk and Spock, which in no way falls under either of the descriptions that i stated. i suggest that we just drop it, as neither of us will convince the other that they are either right or wrong.


Again, you may have expressed your opinion, but you seem to want to silence mine, and I don't understand why. I'm arguing that TOS as a piece of art was deliberatly left open to various interpretations, and multiply layers of meaning. I don't know what "traditional couple" even means. I guess, what I'm getting from you is that "traditional couple" = "kissed on the lips onscreen". If that is what you mean by a couple than, you're right. Including Kirk and Spock on a list of best Star Trek couples makes no sense. As I interpret "couple" to mean "two people who loved each other romantically over an extended period of time" this was my confusion. It was never a matter of convincing you that Kirk and Spock were the best Star Trek couple, nor even a couple by your standards. It was only ever a defense of my right to say that they were the best Star Trek couple to me. Why that isn't allowed on this thread is what I don't understand. Considering the fact that Chakotay and Seven are on this list, but for some reason I'm not allowed to argue that Kirk and Spock were more romantic than that is kind of crazy making.


*deep breath*


But consider the issue dropped.


"What will they find when I am ripped apart? 'I love you, captain' written on my heart."

Camorite

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Report this Jan. 06 2011, 5:14 pm

It seemed that it was in debate because you said this: that being that it was the fight to the death, which was also explained in that episode, that quelled Spock's mating earge, not the fact that he killed kirk. This statement implies that you believe it was the act of killing someone that cured him.


Considering that, at least at that time, the battle was to be a fight to the death (it evolved a little bit by the time they did a Pon'Far story in Voyager) then yeah, him killing Kirk is what brought the blood fever to an end.


I personally have no interest in Vulcan's Heart because the Spock/Saavik being bondmates storyline disgusts me.


Actaully that is just a subplot to the real story, as it mostly deals with how the Unification Movment started. The Pon'Far thing is only a means to get Spock back to Vulcan.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

miklamar

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Report this Jan. 08 2011, 12:45 am

Quote: Dixon Hill @ Dec. 28 2010, 5:59 pm

Captain Picard and Doctor Crusher were an interesting mix. All of the back-story helped flesh-out their fledgling romance, such as it was. Picard and Vash worked well, also.

I just watched Picard and Crusher together in the "Attached" episode, this morning. They should have always been together.

Var Miklama--Zakdorn, engineer. "A sound mind in a FULL body!" "Time, like latinum, is a limited quantity in the galaxy."

Vardonir

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Report this Jan. 08 2011, 9:21 am

In the poll, I voted "other." I don't mind PT, but the other Voyager pair on the poll was C7... Which makes my blood boil.

I'm a J/Cer from the beginning (i.e., a year ago when I first started watching the show) and nothing will change that. Other than full amnesia, but what are the odds of that?

I've seen a bit of TNG, and I did like the entire Picard/Crusher thing. And from the few bits of info I've read about DS9, I seem to have a fondness for Odo/Kira, too.

「マーキーの心。」 私はヴォイジャです。

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