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Typhon Pact

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 04 2011, 4:52 pm

Look at the Andorians in Typhon 4, many of them were adamantly opposed to any outside genetic tampering. If they were so violently opposed to the work if their top geneticists introducing minor chromosomal changes, like they would be open to introductions from the meta-genome? The Andorians worst enemy is themselves.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 07 2011, 4:19 am

Doesn't it seem odd that the Typhon Pact went to great lengths to steal slipstream technology but not the ablative shielding voyager brought home? It seems THAT technology would provide the better tactical advantage for a war fleet.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this Apr. 07 2011, 7:08 am

I agree. The slipstream drive is a sensitive device that is easy to "knock out" of sync. It also is mind-numbing that Andorian honor would allow them to betray their obligations and commitments to the Federation. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Matthias Russell

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Report this Apr. 11 2011, 11:10 am

I don't know if either of our authors still follow this thread, but I was curious to know at what point in the novel series planning it was decided to form this alien Axis power and how it was decided which species would form it.

Promethea

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Report this Apr. 12 2011, 9:41 am

Well, I just finished Book 4, so here are my thoughts having now read back through the thread for others' points.


I liked the book ... mostly, although I agree that the drama took a long while to get going, but I think that was partly the nature of the story being diplomacy-led and about a conference rather than conflict or exploration and partly due to the 'catch up' factor of having to explain what has been happening to Shar & the Andorian research over the last five years and Enterprise over the last one year ... there was a lot of exposition. I think Dayton Ward handled it as well as he could, but it's not an ideal situation to have to come up with scenarios to let the reader know five years of developments. All the DS9 characters have suffered from this in the Typhon Pact books and I wish that we hadn't had to have this big time jump, it has been distracting. It's happened, let's now move on, but I feel that the overall TP series has suffered too. It feels like a placeholder, joining up the missing years and setting the scene for what is to come next - which I presume will be a more overt conflict between the Pact and the Federation* rather than a series drama in itself.


(*At least, that seems to have been the original intention ... perhaps the editorial changes have affected this. I would guess that they also affected the writing of the books to some degree and I've been willing to cut the writers some slack as the process was no doubt a bit difficult. I've worked on projects where the management kept changing and despite everyone's best efforts, the results are never 100%)


Shar featured in the story much less than I would have expected, giving the opening scenes and his place on the cover (where he still looks like a little boy to me rather than this adult everyone's so in love with). Still, I don't like the character much - he whined throughout all of the DS9 relaunch books and was pretty heartless about his bondmate and supposed love's death, taking his new love interest to gatecrash her funeral etc! - so I don't mind. Happy he's left Starfleet too and if Prynn would like to join him and depart the novels' stage, that would suit me fine.


The Enterprise characters were all portrayed well. I think Picard and Crusher's movement towards leaving ship service was natural and makes sense for them. And having now read the book, I actually do think that Worf is being set up as the next Captain (not just the last scene but potentially ironic mentions of him not liking the Captain to go on missions etc) and I hope it pans out that way. It's clear that his past history is less relevant now if he's considered reliable enough to take command of the Enterprise during a major crisis and with so many captains lost either to the Borg or gone back to Andor, I don't think they'll be as sticky about direct command experience as they once were. And he does have diplomatic experience, which is a major part of the flagship's role; it might also help to send a signal to the Klingons - could they possibly be tempted to join the Federation to bolster against the Pact?! Plus, he's an original series character which I do think the TNG books would need to continue.


I appreciated the subtle mirroring of Picard's flute referring to the civilisation which stored themselves as a once-only memory, with the discovery of the DNA containing a civilisation, that was an interesting parallel, as well as a reminder to Picard that he can be happy living a planet-bound family life, because he sort-of-has already. OF COURSE T'Mary Sue fixed the flute. Is there nothing she can't do - apart from shut up?


Someone up thread said all the characters were being neatly paired off - I noticed this too, but found it annoying, though I didn't have any issue with any of the pairings in particular (and am glad Geordi finally got some; he's a good-looking man and must have outgrown his awkwardness around women by now!). Also, I see that Ranul and the late Sean are STILL the only gay people in the future. Although I won't be surprised if T'Mary Sue is bisexual, because she can do everything.


I didn't fully understand why the research had been classified nor why the Andorians blamed the Federation. I haven't read any Vanguard books and don't plan to, so that was a little confusing, but it didn't bother me too much.


However, I did find it hard to buy the Andorians' reactions, both before and after the revelation. It didn't seem quite plausible that they would see the Federation as something 'outside' themselves - as a founding member, they ARE the Federation or at least a very large part of it. It's like the French thinking they're not really part of the European Community or Britain feeling that NATO is for foreigners. It would seem more likely that the rebels would have pitched it as 'this leadership class have betrayed us, let us have a revolution' or 'Earth has come to dominate the Federation too much, they have all the institutions etc'. And, again, I think that a planet which joined the Fed. much later would be more likely to feel ignored by it - say the Trill, as after the Worlds Of DS9 book I wouldn't have been surprised if they had decided to leave or even been kicked out. Still, I'm not really putting this forward as a criticism of the author, as, well, people aren't always rational and I can think of cases of political movements here and now which don't make a lot of sense. Also, the idea of Andor leaving the Federation and the fallout from that is pretty interesting and a good story, so I'm happy to go with it.


Like I say, the overall TP series was more of a transition point for me rather than a fully-alive set of stories, but I did find it interesting and readable enough to be going on with.

thorley

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Report this Apr. 12 2011, 12:11 pm


However, I did find it hard to buy the Andorians' reactions, both before and after the revelation. It didn't seem quite plausible that they would see the Federation as something 'outside' themselves - as a founding member, they ARE the Federation or at least a very large part of it. It's like the French thinking they're not really part of the European Community or Britain feeling that NATO is for foreigners. It would seem more likely that the rebels would have pitched it as 'this leadership class have betrayed us, let us have a revolution' or 'Earth has come to dominate the Federation too much, they have all the institutions etc'. And, again, I think that a planet which joined the Fed. much later would be more likely to feel ignored by it - say the Trill, as after the Worlds Of DS9 book I wouldn't have been surprised if they had decided to leave or even been kicked out.



 


I found the Andorians’ reaction to be pretty implausible as well but I’m less inclined to be as charitable to the writer as you are.  There are just so many obvious plot hole and the leaps that the reader has to make in order to believe that one of the Founding members of the Federation votes to secede and they do so in this manner.  For example, there was supposed to be planet wide referendum and parliamentary vote that occurred over a four day period and no one knows about it until the ambassador tells President Bacco.   I don’t know how elections are conducted in the future, but usually there’s a run-up of weeks or months before a vote and you’d think there’d be a pretty robust public debate over such a major life-altering issue just like we saw earlier in the book over the issue of genetic engineering.  The idea that something like this would get rushed through secretly without any debate doesn’t seem realistic at all.  Are we really supposed to believe that the Andorians are going to take the words of the Tholians at face value over that of their allies for the last 200 plus years without so much as a chance to give an explanation?  Or at the very least (since the vote wasn’t overwhelming) that the opponents of succession wouldn’t pull out every parliamentary trick in the book to slow down the process to allow cooler heads to prevail? Maybe the last Federation president from Andor (who was still alive in the “Articles of the Federation&rdquo might have had a word or two to say on the subject. 


 


 


Also, I think that the author fell into the trap that a lot of Star Trek authors (including the writers of a lot of episodes that are canon) fell into – namely using two-dimensional caricatures to represent an alien culture instead of trying to construct a plausible explanation for why they act as they do.  For example, we’re told that the Visionists favor traditional Andorian values dominate the parliament but we never (a) meet any actual Visionist characters (the terrorist group doesn’t count) or (b) learn what those values are and why they might favor leaving the Federation.  They’re just set up as this sort of nebulous “other” without any rhyme or reason given for their motivation.  Note: we’re supposed to assume that “traditional Andorian values” equals “leaving the Federation” which is also rather implausible given that this political party apparently is one of the dominate ones in Andor which has been a founding member of the Federation.  Are we really supposed to believe that a large percentage of Andorians have been in favor of leaving the Federation this entire time and it just now became an issue?

Promethea

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Report this Apr. 13 2011, 12:27 am

Yes, very fair points, surely people would question why they've been supporting it all along. That's why I think it might have worked better to have the Andorians overthrow their existing leaders of both parties and bring in some new radical group, or have the revelation make them think of the Federation in terms of 'humans vs everyone else' which could have been an interesting way to examine the Fed and Starfleet's obvious human bias (thus, potentially leading into Worf's promotion, as a symbol that you don't have to be human or Vulcan to get ahead in Starfleet).

Matthias Russell

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Report this Apr. 13 2011, 4:16 am

I didn't find the Andorian exit implausible. They have always been a hot headed bunch. With their world attacked by the borg and dying as a species, of course tempers are high! Humans at present get angry and irrational in the face of disaster and want someone to blame, even the wrong person. Let's also remember that they are not human; our ideals of fairness and right will be different than theirs. It is important to portray them doing things humans might not do to maintain that alienness.

Plus, it is interesting to see the federation enter this time of mega crisis. They are amidst reconstruction and tempers are flying. There is a new cold war. Now a founding member leaves? With all of this going on, can they maintain their lofty ideals? Now humans can play their strength as uniters. And let's not plant everything on Ward. Remember these books undergo an editorial process within the franchise. If star trek didn't like this route, they could have made changes before and after it was written; they've fine it before. Imzadi 2 being a great example.

The Andorians may still cool off and come back. In NF, the Caitians have come and gone several times. The shame is we now have no prominent and known Andorian characters in Starfleet we can see deal with being torn between 2 ideologies.

Promethea

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Report this Apr. 13 2011, 11:13 am


And let's not plant everything on Ward. Remember these books undergo an editorial process within the franchise.



Absolutely, but as I said I suspect the normal editorial process was perhaps a bit disrupted due to personnel changes during this series' production.


Also, you may be right that the Andorians are more prone to this reaction than some. I have to admit I don't know much about them; I stopped watching Enterprise before the Andorian came into that and so my only real knowledge is of Shar, who is probably not typical, and his mother & bondmates. And yeah, I could see them coming back in the end and staying neutral until then.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 13 2011, 11:45 am

Right, it isn't like Andoria became an ally of the Tholians or Typhon Pact. They might become a non aligned friend of the federation. I doubt the federation will turn their back on an old friend.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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Report this Apr. 15 2011, 11:02 am

I agree. The political consequences of the new galactic reality will take some time to sort out, but I imagine that the Federation will eventually reunite with its founding member. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 18 2011, 6:05 am

In STO, Donatra disappeared before the events of Destiny. She later returns as a powerful borg drone. It seems her future prospects aren't good in multiple universes. I think she had it better in Typhon Pact.

Reanok

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Report this Apr. 18 2011, 10:57 am

I just finished the Typhon pact books I liked ZeroSum Game the best of the four novels. The second book i had hard time finishing it it was okay some of the Gorn stuff was interesting but I really didn't care for this book I wa rather bored rading this book.Rough beasts of the empire I liked the part book about Spock on Romulos  in the novel. But I was really disappointed how Ben Sisko's character was written in this novel. I did read DrG's comments about Sisko's behavior in the book. i wish there had been more information as to why Rebecca had been kidnapped and how they got her back.Paths of Disharmomy was okay but I didn't like the Andorians leaving the Federation.it will cause a shockwave throughout the federation  and if Andoria does join the Typhon it will cause problems for President bacco.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 18 2011, 11:10 am

The Andorians aren't going to become enemies, no way. They wouldn't go that far, they just want some time alone as a society at this point.

I hope DRG is working on another Sisko book because I want to see where he will take the character. Whoever asked what he did with his baseball was brilliant.

I was never a big Bashir fan but I'm dying for continuance there, too.

j3067

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POSTS: 192

Report this Apr. 18 2011, 6:53 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Apr. 18 2011, 11:10 am

>. I hope DRG is working on another Sisko book because I want to see wherehe will take the character. Whoever asked what he did with his baseball was brilliant. 



I am much less enthusiastic about this prospect .  I'd be afraid the Robinson would surrender to Pakleds after a battle of witts with their debate team. 


The scene sets with our old pal Reginod assuming the bridge and saying "Make us GO" in a delicious play on, "Make it So" . It would probably be a challenging scenario for the readers, even if it is a tough sell.


Agree on the baseball comment. Props to Promethea.

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