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Typhon Pact

Lieutenant_Jedi

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POSTS: 1728

Report this Mar. 20 2011, 9:16 pm

DRG - thank you for your responses. I certainly hope you return to discuss future Star Trek works - and if you have any contact with other Star Trek writers perhaps you could mention to them how amazing it is to have people "critiquing" your work on this fine Board. 


It certainly seems that Sisko made a decision in line with his character and his relationship with the Prophets. I do think that eventually he will realize that he made a mistake, and that his actions were not the right course to follow. His final scene, conversing with his XO seems to hint at such a "change of heart". 


However MR brings up a good point - why have we ignored Kasidy's role in this saga? It takes two to tango. 


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 22 2011, 10:39 am

Thank you, seriously! Kassidy may be hurt about him putting himself in harm's way but geez, try to be "slow to wrath". She was no angel in the series, either. She ran supplies fire the maquis and got jail time. She also annoyed me in the episode where she took the "big step" of moving to ds9 and overreacted to Sisko's reaction. I don't think any other captain carried Sisko's emotional burdens and she wasn't very understanding sometimes.

What else do people want to see continued from Typhon Pact? I want to see a continuation of the Bashir/S31 story (which DM told me on fb isn't currently in work by him). As seen in the next captain of the enterprise thread I started, I'd like to know when Picard finally retires to family life and who replaces him in the center chair.

Promethea

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POSTS: 17

Report this Mar. 23 2011, 5:39 am

Hello everyone. I have been reading this discussion with great interest having just got round to this series and now read the first three (so have skipped posts about the fourth for now).  With regard to the Sisko debate (if everyone not sick of it by now), I think I am somewhere in the middle. On the one hand, I can absolutely see that following his time with the Prophets, and the necessary lull on his return with baby etc, Sisko needed some new storyline. In some ways he is in a similar position to Vaughn at the very start of the Relaunch: looking for something new but not sure yet what it is. He’s moved beyond DS9, especially as it becomes more of a standard space station and less of a political hot spot (also, clearly, having lost touch with the aliens/prophets he could not bear to be around Bajoran believers). I don’t feel that being a spaceship captain is his true future however – more of a holding pattern till he works out what comes next. I also wonder what purpose the Prophets have in not contacting him: it seems too simple that they’ve just got bored of him. Perhaps it is a test and as the story continues their purpose will be revealed as will his new destiny. I could see him taking on a role on a wild frontier, similar to DS9 as it was, perhaps in the Neutral Zone or near another Typhon Pact member. Or perhaps it will involve the Gamma Quadrant.


 


However, despite understanding that the story required him to move on, I did feel uncomfortable with how it played out. I’m not sure how much of this is to do with the real world knowledge of Avery Brooks’ views of the character in the past, nor why that should really matter – after all, I don’t suppose Kate Mulgrew would have wanted Janeway to die, but so what! But in addition, I feel that a little more concreteness to the dilemma would have helped me go with it. I have been thinking about it in comparison to the storyline in the Voyager books where B’Elanna had to leave Tom Paris for a while and pretend to be dead to protect their child from a prophecy – a similar situation (I also was reminded of this by the mention of a kidnapping of Rebecca Sisko by extremists and is this a new piece of backstory or does it exist in a story I’ve missed?). In the Voyager story, it was clear how difficult this was for both adults – we saw both perspectives (here, we didn’t see Kasidy’s) – and it was also clear from the start what, roughly, was going on. The threat was also very concrete: people were after Miral, there were actual attempts on her life, etc, so there could really be no dispute that B’Elanna had to do something, painful as it was. In Sisko’s case, it’s hard to tell if he is imagining some of the danger, perhaps that is deliberately ambiguous and later we will find that the Prophets will explain that the deaths of his neighbours, father etc were just coincidence and the future they originally saw has been changed. But if so, by then Kasidy might not take him back! It would be interesting if she became so sick of the Prophets that she left Bajor and resumed a career as a captain or even smuggler.


 


Another point is that this storyline, even if it turns out to be a mistake, does fit Sisko in a way that it wouldn’t with other characters. Say for example Kirk was told that he had to abandon the Enterprise (or a family) or only know sorrow: he would never accept it, he would go crazy trying to find a way to change the rules of the game. But Sisko is not Kirk, he’s a man who has sometimes doubted himself, who has agonised over decisions and as pointed out, who has acted on faith before.


 


It would be interesting to know where his baseball is … is it at Kasidy’s house?


 


Anyway, the book was certainly thought-provoking and the fact that it has brought about such debate must mean that David George did something right! The book certainly kept me intrigued and he captured Spock particularly well. One thing I noticed: when Tal’Aura asks Spock what the point of Romulan/Vulcan reunification is, he doesn’t exactly answer. Always wondered myself. Sure, the aggressive Romulan culture does need a touch of Vulcan calm and logic (and perhaps vice versa), but why do they actually need to reunite the two governments and is this really a likely possibility anyway?


 


Sorry that Donatra died, she did good service to the Federation and was the best hope for lasting peace with Romulus, but perhaps that wouldn’t be very dramatic. Tal’Aura was also a good character and very crafty, sorry to see her go too. Jury’s still out for me on the new praetor.


 


Couple of things I really enjoyed: the shocking (to me) development that Kira is now a vedek and has left Starfleet. I never saw that coming, yet instantly I saw that it made sense with her character. I would love to see a book centred on Kira in the future, trying to reconcile her new status with the other driving force of her character, her need to defend her people. What if there was a threat to Bajor and she had to decide whether to respond spiritually or militarily?


 


Also, despite being sad that Joseph Sisko died, it was interesting to see Ben revisit New Orleans and I appreciated touches like the jazz funeral (in my mind, led by Batiste from Treme!) and the Katrina Memorial Cemetery. It was a surprise though to learn of an old cinema in the neighbourhood. Would they still exist in a time of holosuites, or would perhaps there be a few for old-time entertainment enthusiasts?


 


Having talked so much about the third book, I’ll leave the first two for now!

Matthias Russell

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Report this Mar. 23 2011, 6:53 am

Excellent contribution. Welcome to the boards. I hope you'll contribute more here and in other book threads. Please throw in your thoughts on 1 and 2.

Promethea

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POSTS: 17

Report this Mar. 24 2011, 2:39 am

Thanks! And apologies for the weird font, I pasted from Word.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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POSTS: 1728

Report this Mar. 24 2011, 9:04 am

It was a surprise though to learn of an old cinema in the neighbourhood. Would they still exist in a time of holosuites, or would perhaps there be a few for old-time entertainment enthusiasts?





I would imagine that just like people treasure old books and phonographs today, people would enjoy the uniqueness of 2d cinema. 

"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

DavidRGeorgeIII

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POSTS: 31

Report this Mar. 25 2011, 2:29 am

-- Another thing that keeps this from coming together for me is that the worm-hole aliens/prophets have shown that they can be successfully petitioned for intercession and have the means to alter the course of linear events.  What I am recalling is the same episode you mentioned in which Wormhole Aliens make the Jem'Hedar fleet go 'poof'.  To do this they require a penance (no peace on Bajor/no promised land for Moses). Part of Sisko's reasoning in the book, as I read it, is founded on the assumption that the prophets are only observers. --

An interesting observation, but an incomplete one, I think. Even if Sisko thought that the Prophets could somehow do something in this particular case, he hasn't had contact with them in quite some time. In fact, one of the things that is disturbing him is that he believes that the Prophets have abandoned him, that they used him for their purposes and then discarded them. That being the case, how could he ask them to intervene if he no longer interacts with them?

Also, I would suggest that there is a fundamental difference between Sisko asking the Prophets to help protect Bajor, and him asking them to change something they have already witnessed (since they live a nonlinear existence).

-- DRG - thank you for your responses. I certainly hope you return to discuss future Star Trek works - and if you have any contact with other Star Trek writers perhaps you could mention to them how amazing it is to have people "critiquing" your work on this fine Board. --

I enjoy chatting with readers, and I am of course a Star Trek fan, so I'm happy to post here.


-- It certainly seems that Sisko made a decision in line with his character and his relationship with the Prophets. I do think that eventually he will realize that he made a mistake, and that his actions were not the right course to follow. His final scene, conversing with his XO seems to hint at such a "change of heart". --

Time will tell.

-- However MR brings up a good point - why have we ignored Kasidy's role in this saga? It takes two to tango. --

In some sense, Kasidy played no role in this situation. That is, she didn't do something to drive Sisko away, or to cause trouble between them. There may have been tension owing to some of the difficulties the couple endured, such as the kidnapping of their daughter, but that's not why Sisko left. He specifically left because he thought doing so would save her life.

At the same time, Kasidy's story certainly merits some examination. Perhaps we'll get to see that in a future novel.

-- Thank you, seriously! Kassidy may be hurt about him putting himself in harm's way but geez, try to be "slow to wrath". She was no angel in the series, either. She ran supplies fire the maquis and got jail time. She also annoyed me in the episode where she took the "big step" of moving to ds9 and overreacted to Sisko's reaction. I don't think any other captain carried Sisko's emotional burdens and she wasn't very understanding sometimes. --

I don't think Kasidy was quick to turn on Sisko. Her reaction to his announcement of his return to Starfleet came on the heels of a terrible time for the couple, and a period in which Sisko used their troubles to drive a wedge between them. In essence, he wanted Kasidy to throw him out because he thought that would be easier for her.

-- Hello everyone. I have been reading this discussion with great interest having just got round to this series and now read the first three (so have skipped posts about the fourth for now).  With regard to the Sisko debate (if everyone not sick of it by now), I think I am somewhere in the middle. On the one hand, I can absolutely see that following his time with the Prophets, and the necessary lull on his return with baby etc, Sisko needed some new storyline. In some ways he is in a similar position to Vaughn at the very start of the Relaunch: looking for something new but not sure yet what it is. He’s moved beyond DS9, especially as it becomes more of a standard space station and less of a political hot spot (also, clearly, having lost touch with the aliens/prophets he could not bear to be around Bajoran believers). I don’t feel that being a spaceship captain is his true future however – more of a holding pattern till he works out what comes next. I also wonder what purpose the Prophets have in not contacting him: it seems too simple that they’ve just got bored of him. Perhaps it is a test and as the story continues their purpose will be revealed as will his new destiny. I could see him taking on a role on a wild frontier, similar to DS9 as it was, perhaps in the Neutral Zone or near another Typhon Pact member. Or perhaps it will involve the Gamma Quadrant. --

Again, time will tell.

-- However, despite understanding that the story required him to move on, I did feel uncomfortable with how it played out. I’m not sure how much of this is to do with the real world knowledge of Avery Brooks’ views of the character in the past, nor why that should really matter – after all, I don’t suppose Kate Mulgrew would have wanted Janeway to die, but so what! But in addition, I feel that a little more concreteness to the dilemma would have helped me go with it. I have been thinking about it in comparison to the storyline in the Voyager books where B’Elanna had to leave Tom Paris for a while and pretend to be dead to protect their child from a prophecy – a similar situation (I also was reminded of this by the mention of a kidnapping of Rebecca Sisko by extremists and is this a new piece of backstory or does it exist in a story I’ve missed?). In the Voyager story, it was clear how difficult this was for both adults – we saw both perspectives (here, we didn’t see Kasidy’s) – and it was also clear from the start what, roughly, was going on. The threat was also very concrete: people were after Miral, there were actual attempts on her life, etc, so there could really be no dispute that B’Elanna had to do something, painful as it was. In Sisko’s case, it’s hard to tell if he is imagining some of the danger, perhaps that is deliberately ambiguous and later we will find that the Prophets will explain that the deaths of his neighbours, father etc were just coincidence and the future they originally saw has been changed. But if so, by then Kasidy might not take him back! It would be interesting if she became so sick of the Prophets that she left Bajor and resumed a career as a captain or even smuggler. --

Some interesting points in here. Let's hope that answers will be coming in future novels.

-- Another point is that this storyline, even if it turns out to be a mistake, does fit Sisko in a way that it wouldn’t with other characters. Say for example Kirk was told that he had to abandon the Enterprise (or a family) or only know sorrow: he would never accept it, he would go crazy trying to find a way to change the rules of the game. But Sisko is not Kirk, he’s a man who has sometimes doubted himself, who has agonised over decisions and as pointed out, who has acted on faith before. --

I agree with the characterizations of both Kirk and Sisko here, although we have seen Kirk experience moments of self-doubt. And to be honest, I don't think faith plays a role with Sisko here. The Prophets told him something definitive, and as he has in the past, he believed them, not out of some devotion to them, but because they have proven many times to know what they're talking about.

-- It would be interesting to know where his baseball is … is it at Kasidy’s house? --

Oh. Wow. Good question.

-- Anyway, the book was certainly thought-provoking and the fact that it has brought about such debate must mean that David George did something right! The book certainly kept me intrigued and he captured Spock particularly well. One thing I noticed: when Tal’Aura asks Spock what the point of Romulan/Vulcan reunification is, he doesn’t exactly answer. Always wondered myself. Sure, the aggressive Romulan culture does need a touch of Vulcan calm and logic (and perhaps vice versa), but why do they actually need to reunite the two governments and is this really a likely possibility anyway? --

I can tell you that I'd much rather a reader hate my story than be apathetic about it.

As for the point of Vulcan-Romulan reunification, I finally got to write what I've always thought: what's the point? It doesn't exactly seem logical, which is doubtless why Spock couldn't really answer Tal'Aura.

-- Sorry that Donatra died, she did good service to the Federation and was the best hope for lasting peace with Romulus, but perhaps that wouldn’t be very dramatic. Tal’Aura was also a good character and very crafty, sorry to see her go too. Jury’s still out for me on the new praetor. --

It's always interesting to me when I hear how some people really liked the character of Donatra. I mean, she did abet the assassinations of the praetor and the Romulan Senate, propelled a madman to the leadership of the Empire, and then betrayed him. Not exactly a flawless person. Yes, she did redeem herself somewhat, but still, she was a mass murderer.

-- Couple of things I really enjoyed: the shocking (to me) development that Kira is now a vedek and has left Starfleet. I never saw that coming, yet instantly I saw that it made sense with her character. I would love to see a book centred on Kira in the future, trying to reconcile her new status with the other driving force of her character, her need to defend her people. What if there was a threat to Bajor and she had to decide whether to respond spiritually or militarily? --

I feel that, at first blush, a quiet life of devotion to the Prophets and her people might seem out of character for Kira. But I also believe that characters can grow, and it seemed reasonable to me that Kira would seek such a life as she matured and the Bajoran political situation settled down. I'm looking forward to see where she goes from here.

-- Also, despite being sad that Joseph Sisko died, it was interesting to see Ben revisit New Orleans and I appreciated touches like the jazz funeral (in my mind, led by Batiste from Treme!) and the Katrina Memorial Cemetery. It was a surprise though to learn of an old cinema in the neighbourhood. Would they still exist in a time of holosuites, or would perhaps there be a few for old-time entertainment enthusiasts? --

I enjoyed writing the city of New Orleans into the novel. As for the cinema, I simply described it as a movie theater; that doesn't mean it isn't a holographic movie theater. Of course, it could just as easily be a throwback to an earlier time. I mean, I still watch silent films, despite that they effectively haven't been made for eight decades.
 


Regards, David

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 26 2011, 4:35 am

DRG III, why do you make us want more when we will have to wait so long?

The baseball situation is a good question. It tells you where Sisko's heart is. My wife just said she thinks Sisko would have left the baseball to show his daughter he loves her and his heart is with her. So was Sisko wanting Kassidy to throw him out (and exile himself from the family) or was he just looking to be physically away?

As for Donatra, as I said before, we don't know that she was aware of the mass assassination ahead of time. It was genocide that turned her on shinzon. I'd say she was always ethical, at least some what. Also, had she met shinzon before the scene in nemesis? Perhaps she only followed because her superior/lover did and hadn't met shinzon to know he was a madman. Either way, questionable morals for a human but pretty lofty for a romulan.

BTW DRG, any thoughts on if Sisko might/should get the enterprise when Picard retires?

Jedi, I think book 3/sisko needed their own thread.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 26 2011, 4:53 am

On if Sisko would/should be given the -prise, I'm asking DRG the fan, not DRG the author who cannot give spoilers, to speculate on his capability to be a flag captain and the faith in him command has.

Promethea

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POSTS: 17

Report this Mar. 26 2011, 11:11 am

Thanks for responding!


Re the baseball, I hereby renounce all claim on this idea if any Pocket Books writer would care to incorporate it in a future story ... promise not to sue! (I'm kidding)


You know, it strikes me that it must be sorta weird to write the Trek books in this collaborative fashion. David George may have an idea of how he would like Sisko's story, or Kira's, to turn out, but as I understand it, he doesn't really have any control as the next writer to continue those charactersmay decide something quite different. Sure, I guess he can suggest or try to influence the plot development, but ultimately he'd have to wait and see. I suppose this is how writing a TV episode works too, but then the show runner, presumably, has more control over where the story is going and you're writing to fit in with that, this situation seems a little different. Unless the editor in charge of the line (not sure who it is now, I know the previous editors have gone) plays that role somewhat. Anyway it must be an interesting challenge to write that way and frustrating sometimes.


Sisko ending up with the Enterprise would be very intriguing but I haven't got hold of the 4th book yet so I'm not sure what's happening with Picard.


Re Donatra, I think perhaps I'm judging her simply from the books, by which time she's 'reformed' to some extent, rather than Nemesis, which I've only seen once back when it came out and is a little blurry in my mind. It wasn't my favourite movie, though I didn't hate it or anything. So perhaps I'm being too easy on her.


 

padracin

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POSTS: 325

Report this Mar. 26 2011, 6:19 pm

I've finished all four now, and recommend them.  The story gets more complex, broader, and interesting with each novel.  I liked in particular the evolution of Spock and his goals for reunification with the Romulans.  There's a blockbuster ending involving the andorians. 

Matthias Russell

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Report this Mar. 26 2011, 6:56 pm

I am eagerly awaiting the Andorian fallout.


thorley

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Report this Apr. 04 2011, 12:40 pm

I’ve enjoyed the Typhon Pact novels so far largely because I love the concept of an “anti-Federation” – an alliance of hostile alien races working together in opposition to the Federation.  We’ve finally gotten to see the Tzenkethi and explored a bit of the background of the Breen and had a book that featured the Gorns.  And we’ve finally seen a reunified Romulan Star Empire with a reconstituted Senate under a more competent Praetor.  


 


 


One thought I’ve had about the Andorian fallout is how vulnerable the Federation is that one of its founding members seceded because it classified information about the Taurus meta-genome. 


 


 


Imagine what might happen if the Orion Syndicate were to share with the Typhon Pact the evidence it has that – at the behest of the previous Federation President Zife – they supplied nadion pulse weapons to Tezwa which were later used to destroy several Klingon vessels and 6000 Klingon warriors and that the Federation framed the Tholians for providing the weapons.  Picard destroyed the weapons for fear that if their source were revealed it might lead to war between the Federation and Klingons.  Disclosing that information now might at the very least put a serious fracture in the Federation-Klingon alliance.


 


 


Also consider what the reaction of the member worlds of the Federation might be if they learn that the last two Federation presidents were each the victims of coup attempts by cabals of Starfleet officers.  Such a revelation coming on the heels of one of the Federation’s founding members seceding from the Federation might cause other members to rethink their membership as well.  If members of Starfleet were complicit in attempts to overthrow two Federation presidents, what might it be willing to do to their own planetary governments?   Don’t forget that at least one Starfleet captain effectively kidnapped the president of a Federation member world to “convince” them to take on more refugees.


 


 


And God only help them if anyone tries to find where Zife retired to and learns that not only was he overthrown by Starfleet, he and two of his aides were murdered as well. 

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 04 2011, 2:07 pm

I just finished Vanguard 4 and was appauled at how Starfleet covered up what was going on in the Taurus Reach at the cost of many lives.  I really don't think the Andorians had the right to be so offended since the current Starfleet and UFP heads knew nothing of the specifics about those things until the Andorians did.  Of course, Andorians aren't the most level-headed. 


 


I can't wait to see how this further destabilizes the UFP, also.


 


Welcome to the boards, thorley.  Please continue to join us here.


thorley

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POSTS: 6

Report this Apr. 04 2011, 2:43 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Apr. 04 2011, 2:07 pm

> style="font-family: Verdana; color: black; font-size: 8.5pt;">

> style="font-family: Verdana; color: black; font-size: 8.5pt;">I just finished Vanguard 4 and was appauled at how Starfleet covered up what was going on in the Taurus Reach at the cost of many lives.  I really don't think the Andorians had the right to be so offended since the current Starfleet and UFP heads knew nothing of the specifics about those things until the Andorians did.  Of course, Andorians aren't the most level-headed. 

> style="font-family: Verdana; color: black; font-size: 8.5pt;">


 


I haven’t read any of the Vanguard novels (on my list) but when I read the entries at Memory Beta for the Andorian Empire and Taurus meta-genome, it says that the Andorians had been facing their genetic crisis for about 200 years but didn’t go public with it to the rest of the Federation until 2376. It also says that the Federation classified the information on the Taurus meta-genome in 2263.  So basically the information had been put in storage and forgotten about for well over a century before anyone outside of Andor knew about the genetic crisis.


 


Incidentally at least one of the Federation Presidents during the time that the meta-genome information had been classified was an Andorian (Thelianaresth th'Vorothishria).  It seems to me that unless he’s considered some sort of traitor to the Andorian people (I doubt that that’s a widely held view), the Andorians would assume that if he knew about this information and knew about his people’s genetic problems, he want to do everything he can to help them. 


 


The fact that he either didn’t know about the information (which is likely since it had been pretty much forgotten about) or knew about it and decided not to release it, ought to suggest to the Andorians that the Federation wasn’t acting maliciously in keeping it secret.   It was a case of people now sharing information with each other (such as the Andorians keeping their plight a secret for about 200 years from the rest of the Federation) or an honest assessment that the information wouldn’t have been helpful to their plight or that it was too dangerous to disseminate. 


 


 


 


 


 


 

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