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Typhon Pact

DavidRGeorgeIII

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POSTS: 31

Report this Mar. 16 2011, 5:41 pm

^ I'm afraid that when you say I'm equivocating, and that my argument is a cop-out, you actually are mounting a personal attack. Far beyond disagreeing with me, or simply not liking my writing, you are stating that I am making an argument with intent to deceive (equivocating) and making my argument disingenuously (cop-out). So while you may regret that I took that part of your criticism personally (which of course blames me for the personal nature of those statements), you did in fact make it personal, either intentionally or unintentionally.

j3067

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POSTS: 192

Report this Mar. 16 2011, 6:29 pm

Then perhaps it would have been more accurate description of my position to say that Ben Sisko, as portrayed in Rough Beastsl, is equivocating and coping-out if he would describe his actions as heroic.


 

DavidRGeorgeIII

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POSTS: 31

Report this Mar. 16 2011, 10:19 pm

^ No. In that case, you'd simply be incorrect. At no time does Ben Sisko say, or even think, that his own actions are heroic.

j3067

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POSTS: 192

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 3:37 am

That does clear things up.  From previous posts I had the impression that this was the case that you were making.  He abbandoned his family and in several scenes, squirmed in front of the admiralty as he hemmed and hawed about rejoining starfleet. To call that heroic seems like a logical fallacy and that was the reason behind my word choice.  If that is not the case then you are correct and I apologize for the misunderstaning.

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 5:50 am

I think you could consider Sisko's actions as brave and self-sacrificing acts. He didn't do them to escape or indulge himself. He wanted to protect people at the expense of his own happiness. I think putting the well being of others ahead of your own is always heroic, (though we may not label it as such) because it is a saving act of some sort. At least, that is my understanding of what happened.

j3067

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POSTS: 192

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 7:14 am

First thing that viewing it as couragous made me think of was Sir Robin from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:


"Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out."


I think it was an act of moral cowardice and for it he is dying 1000 deaths on the Robinson.  I'd like to see Ezri straighten him out in a future book.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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POSTS: 1728

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 10:21 am

Honestly, if we do not like how a book is written, we can write one ourselves or don't buy anything else the author writes. I find it interesting when a brand new user account uses the same words and tactics of a commonly occurring troll on these boards. 


DRG III - perhaps you could just ignore "j3067". Thank you for explaining your writing. And could you share some details of your two 2012 Star Trek books?


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

j3067

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POSTS: 192

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 12:32 pm

Quote: Lieutenant_Jedi @ Mar. 17 2011, 10:21 am

>

>Honestly, if we do not like how a book is written, we can write one ourselves or don't buy anything else the author writes. I find it interesting when a brand new user account uses the same words and tactics of a commonly occurring troll on these boards. 

>DRG III - perhaps you could just ignore "j3067". Thank you for explaining your writing. And could you share some details of your two 2012 Star Trek books?

>


I can also express my opinion on public boards dedicated to the subject in question. I paid for the book and put some fraction of the cost in his pocket. I actually enjoyed Mr. George's previous work (Twilight and his contribution to Twist of Faith), but obviously I think he missed the mark by a wide margin in this case.


I am a new account. I saw in an amazon review that Mr. George posts these boards and that is what brought me here. I have no alter ego on this board or any awareness of its content outside of this thread.  I was hoping that I could better understand why Mr. George did what he did and hopefully gain an appreciation for the creative choices he made.  I was only successful in the former goal.


The rationalization that a person can act heroically by abandoning his family is a point on which I feel strongly.  I also did not enjoy picturing Ben Sisko flip-flop in and out of starfleet and squirm in Admiral Akaar's office. My intent is to provide feedback in the hope that it will influence future editorial choices, not to stir up trouble for trouble's sake and I am certainly not enjoying it.  This has probably been as bad for me as it has for you.

DavidRGeorgeIII

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POSTS: 31

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 2:53 pm

^ First, please call me David.


 


Second, I have no problem at all with you expressing your opinion, so long as it remains of the work and doesn't become personal.


 


Third, under normal circumstances, I would agree that it seems unlikely that a person would be acting heroically by abandoning his family. But think of this: what should a person do if faced with one of two choices, either leaving their family or having their family die? Obviously there's more to it than that, but at a very basic level, this is what Sisko endured. He believed completely that if he stayed with Kasidy, something terrible would befall Kasidy and Rebecca. He chose to save them at the cost of his own happiness, as well as Kasidy's. He didn't do it out of cowardice, but made a tremendous sacrifice.


 


As a creative choice, I can totally understand you not liking this story line. At the same time, I hope you can at least understand it.


Regards, David

CO_Fowler

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POSTS: 5504

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 8:59 pm

Okay.  I caught up with that I've meesed and all I can say is...........WOW


 


I've read all the posts.  I've even seen some tempers flaring a bit.  Of course because of the fact that we are all writing and reading here, we can't actually see each others faces so we can't get a feel as to what we all are actaully feeling or our meaning behind some of the words.


 


In my opinion, Sisko is acting or maybe the better word would be 're-acting' to what the Prophets told him.  Somewhere in his mind he sees the deaths, or near deaths, of friends or family and his feelings about it as the prophecy being fullfilled.  True or not, HE sees it as such so he has decided to save those he loves by removing himself from the equation.  Sisko seems to be of the mind that it's better that Kas, Rebecca and Jake should be mad at him leaving since this way they are still alive to be mad.


Now right or wrong, that is the impression I got from the story.  And I've known some people that have done something similar.


As for DRGIII, I am glad to see the authors come and talk with us.  I just hope that they don't feel that we're insulting them in any way when we might disagree or poss. not see eye to eye with something.  And I'm not trying to be insutling here    Just sayin is all


 


Now as to the book, I liked it overall.  There were a few things that left me scratching my head, but I do also know that we readers don't always know what is coming next.  We can guess, but that's all, really.


Anyhoo, I've got a headache, but wanted to at least give a reply.  Hopefully this isn't too garbled so I'll check again tomorrow and hope that I made some sense LOL



Nightie night


R.I.P. My sweet Casey Bug. Mommy will see you again one day :`o( 18DEC01-24SEP11 / "Don't try to win over the haters. You're not the jackass whisperer."~Scott Stratten /It's a lot like nuts and bolts-if the rider's nuts, the horse bolts! ~Nicholas Evans /IDIC-Infinite Diversity Infinite Combination/Sgt Esterhaus: Hey, let's be careful out there!/4000/ To succeed in life, you need three things: a wishbone, a backbone and a funnybone

DavidRGeorgeIII

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POSTS: 31

Report this Mar. 17 2011, 11:14 pm

^ I take no offense at somebody disagreeing with me, nor at anybody not liking something I've written. I do take exception when, for example, somebody accuses me of equivocating. I don't mind somebody asking me about my motives with respect to my creative choices, but it becomes problematic when a reader ascribes motives to me.


 


I'll tell you this too: the best review I've ever read of any of my work was a negative review. It was well written and well observed, and just a good piece of writing. Now, I didn't agree with most of it, but it was a perfectly legitimate review. So what I'm saying is, I don't take criticism of my work personally.


Regards, David

Matthias Russell

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POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 18 2011, 5:34 am

I imagine most feedback is good whether positive or negative so long as it is delivered as constructive criticism as it is in my profession. That it's how you gauge your abilities and grow as a professional.

As to the Siskos, the separation saddens me. I understand it though it wouldn't have been my choice. But hey, I'm an engineer. Let's not forget, though, that Sisko chose to go back to the career he had when they were married, she knew it was in his blood. Though Sisko chose to return to duty, if I remember correctly it was Kassidy that threw him out after a terrible battle and the death of his father. Lets not forget to look at Kassidy and consider her concerns, motives, and role in the break up. It wasn't entirely on Ben.

I got to say DRG III, love it or hate it, your book got us talking the most. You've definitely made an emotional impact which in itself would seem to do credit for you and your book.

Lieutenant_Jedi

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POSTS: 1728

Report this Mar. 18 2011, 9:10 am

Very true. Even more than book four which has Andoria leaving the Federation! Goes to show that people are more interested in good characters than larger socio- political issues. 


Are you able David, to share with us any details of your new projects? If not, I will stop asking.


"Can you detect midi - chlorians with a tricorder?"

DavidRGeorgeIII

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POSTS: 31

Report this Mar. 19 2011, 12:41 am

^ I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to say anything about my two new Star Trek novels, other than that they will be published in 2012. I really appreciate your interest, though. I'll announce details as they become available.


Regards, David

eric.teall

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POSTS: 7

Report this Mar. 19 2011, 11:10 am

David,


I'd like to second (third? fourth?) the sincere thanks to you for stopping by and discussing your work.  I am one who has been (and will continue to be) very critical of RBofE, but I hope my review and comments on Amazon and ST.com have not seemed personal to you. 


FWIW, while I can completely see your point on "equivocating" and "cop-out," I didn't originally see those as "personal" attacks.  While I can't speak for other posters, I am not sure that someone who isn't a professional wordsmith chooses his words as carefully as one who is.


Finally, I'd like to comment on Sisko's interpretation of the Prophets' "prophecy."  I completely understand what you mean when you explain that the Prophets are not "predicting," they are actually "reporting."  They're non-linear.  That makes sense.  What bothers me is that the "sorrow" that Sisko and his family were experiencing didn't seem to have anything to do with SISKO.  It's not as though any of the events had an ounce of anything to do with him, personally.  Because of this, there doesn't seem a compelling reason for him to suddenly decide that leaving his family will protect them.  While his running away might help HIM avoid the sorrow, it doesn't seem to provide any rational basis for believing that his running away will help Kas and the baby to avoid the sorrow.  It also doesn't create a reason to believe that the sorrowful events will cease because he is gone.


Instead, Sisko's decision smacks of running away when the going gets tough.  This isn't a strategic retreat.  It's not the removal of a cause of suffering.  It just seems to be cowardice, and while Sisko was never perfect, I don't ever recall him being a coward, and that's my problem with what happened in the book.


I say all of the above only for the sake of clarification of why I have been so down on the book.


Overall, I have to say also that, after all four books, I am less interested in the Typhon Pact storyline than I was six months ago.  While I will probably buy the next in-continuity book, I will not "rush" to do so and will probably wait until the summer (as I'm a teacher).

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