ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Eugenics/Genetic Engineering

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 30 2011, 11:00 am

Why would someone named juliansgirl feel that way?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Mar. 30 2011, 4:38 pm

Quote: juliansgirl7 @ Mar. 30 2011, 9:45 am

>

>My problem is the way the genetically enhanced are treated afterwards, penalized for the actions of their parents.  They didn't choose to have the procedures so banning them from Starfleet and/or the medical field is unfair

>


Yeah something like that. This isn't anything that they chose for themselves any more than we can choose our race or gender, or circumstances of early childhood.


um... I wonder indeed how much of the behaviour of the Augments of Enterprise could be put down to the screwed up environment and the ideas with which they lived. After all, the GE people from "Masterpiece Society" while living in such a fragile community, did manage to an extent to make it work.


With regard to the Denobulans / Human distinction on their attitudes to GE people, it may not be that humans are less "mature" at this point, but that their racial memory is scarred by the events of the Eugenics Wars. (We know little to nothing -- except in books -- about Khan's childhood but can only assume that it may have been similar to that of the Enterprise Augments.)


There is a degree of paranoia surrounding the issue of genetic engineering on humans. Confirmed by R.A. Bennett in "Doctor Bashir I presume" where his argument cites the Eugenics Wars, and his reasoning -- "The laws against genetic engineering provide a firewall against such men" -- basically comes along the lines of "never again."


Perhaps humanity in the 23/24 century is as "ready" as the Denobulans were by the 22nd, but the Denobulans do not have a Eugenics Wars in their history to make them as reactionary to the issue as Earthlings are.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Marshal2814.1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1

Report this Mar. 30 2011, 5:15 pm

All of you have some very good points, but the main problem with enhancing genes and getting rid of defects is that it soon becomes a slippery slope.  After all, I'm color-blind, and therefore I don't see colors as clearly as everyone else, but due to it I naturally have better night-vision than most people.  Due to having more rods than color-cones.  So do I have a defect or an enhancement than the average person?  Or, do I have an enhancement that needs to match everones' natural ability to see colors better than me?


Then we get into race. Who has the better skin tone?  Who has the most natural resistance to the Sun's harmful rays.  Which is prettier: Blondes or Brunettes. So on and so forth.


So we could have another Khan situation if things were allowed to begin with.  Especially for enhancements that push mankind beyond the norm.

ownerer

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 105

Report this Mar. 30 2011, 6:35 pm

just gona put this out there , but  this will create a upper class , a new generation of super men rulers which would  BE VERY BAD. i dont know how much people say that in the future they are more evolved but in realism(you know who you are) they are only more "evolved" cause they have evertyhing they want.


but waht if another race is geneticaly engineerd and we cant stand up to the onslaught.

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 31 2011, 5:09 am

A lot of this discussion had centered around human concerns and values. Are these issues universal or human centric? If other species such as the Denobulans never had a eugenics war and have no issues with handling the technology responsibilities, should this "firewall" be federation doctrine?

It seems to me, like in the case of Dr Bashir, that these augments are subjected to racism. Isn't this wrong and contrary to federation doctrine?

To maybe take this discussion a little further from home to provide a similar comparison, in the Titan books, there is a character named Torvig whose race is cybernetic. Without those implants, they would have the brain capacity and lifestyle of earth deer. However, an unknown race modified them with implants to make them sentient. He comments about how he is often prejudiced because of hate for the Borg. Cybernetics, like genetic manipulation can enhance those damaged to be able to function properly our raise a standard if life. But should this too be condemned by the federation for fear of creating another borg?

Trekwolf164

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 32043

Report this Mar. 31 2011, 5:24 am

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l18/csizemore47/insp_spocks_brain_preview.jpg


 


Federation Rules are vague about a culture's private practices "Vulcan's fight to the death in mating rituals"


So if a species like the Denoblians practice genetic engineering but do not call it that but "imperfection circumcision"" and it involves the culture of the race.


The Federation may never know until someone from another race seeks them for enhancements and is caught.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Mar. 31 2011, 5:42 am

So it is race/species specific? What if a hybrid like Troi or Spock seek modification then? Do the humans have the right to forbid them?

Trekwolf164

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 32043

Report this Mar. 31 2011, 6:05 am

I would say no once a being is born is has the right to medical aid unless that aid will injure others.


So if a Hybred needs  a heart or other organ to survive then why not ?


But if it is just to be an Ideal specimen and not for life preservation  I would think no.


 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcdZla4gKk0

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Apr. 08 2011, 3:02 am

"It seems to me, like in the case of Dr Bashir, that these augments are subjected to racism. Isn't this wrong and contrary to federation doctrine?"


Yes. Absolutely. It is discrimination. However... The problem as Starfleet sees it is where to draw the line, and what alternative can they find to discourage people from engaging in genetic manipulation. The problem is that in trying to avoid a Gattaca kind of society, they have created one which discriminates in the opposite direction.


And for people who would condemn someone like Bashir for lying, remember that it is the Federation that created the circumstances in which a) his father felt that it was necessary to seek this procedure in the first place -- ie people do fall behind and are looked upon as "underachievers" if they do, and b) Julian himself felt it necessary to have lied. -- Seriously, what was the alternative at the age of fifteen?? Come straight out and say bye bye to all his future ambitions??


"All of you have some very good points, but the main problem with enhancing genes and getting rid of defects is that it soon becomes a slippery slope.  After all, I'm color-blind, and therefore I don't see colors as clearly as everyone else, but due to it I naturally have better night-vision than most people.  Due to having more rods than color-cones.  So do I have a defect or an enhancement than the average person?  Or, do I have an enhancement that needs to match everones' natural ability to see colors better than me?"



Similar concerns have been raised by members of the Deaf community, the Neurodiversity movement, the Gay community, Little People, and a myriad of others. Where can the line be drawn between what is "defect" and what is simply "difference" ?? And when does changing something become a sign of unworthiness ??


Recent research in the new science of "epigenetics" has looked at turning on and off genes to "Repair" certain genetic "diseases" they use that word: diseases such as -- and I quote from Time magazine: Schizophrenia, Alzheimers, and Autism. As a member of the Autistic community I don't mind saying I find such a notion blatantly offensive. So I can see where you are coming from there. And the issue of having to answer these questions about Engineering are so much closer than they used to be when the idea was first discussed.


Oh and my dad is red-green colour blind -- which means I'm not (as a girl) but do carry the colour blindness gene.


 


It's the Mutant Cure from X-men 3 all over again.


"So if a species like the Denoblians practice genetic engineering but do not call it that but "imperfection circumcision"" and it involves the culture of the race."



I think "imperfection circumcision" sounds even more dodgy than "genetic engineering", myself.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Matthias Russell

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7705

Report this Apr. 08 2011, 5:17 am

I didn't know Denobulans were Jewish.

Recently logged in

Users browsing this forum: darmokattanagra

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum