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The tommygun scene In First Contact

Vorta_the_point

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POSTS: 624

Report this Oct. 07 2010, 7:02 am

You are basing this statement on the fact that SW weapons have no frequency, which is a bold assumption since energy, by its very nature, must exist at some sort of frequency, otherwise it would be undetectable.


No, energy being detectable is not dependant on frequency; for example, thermal energy can be detected by heat signature, ionic energy concentration by the quantity of electrical impulses, etc.


 


Hence the reason why i don't like that arguement. but at the same time the point is still there. Also despite being a little rushed, Picard was still able to keep a colol head during the entire operation, only panicing a little at the end while frisking that guy for his gun, so it is still a posibility.


But as you say, that theory doesn’t match the evidence available (the Borg wounds are consistent with bullets, Picard isn’t specifically looking for the tommy-gun, he is rushed and doesn’t program the correct chapter), so why should we consider it?


 


Really, and how many Borg drones have you seen taken down by real bullets during any of the series. The point is that you don't know for sure what it would look like in the end, especially when Borg armor plates come into play, and therefore cannot make that determination.


They act exactly as if they’re being riddled with bullets. The Borg armour comes into play in the length of time it takes for each of them to fall.


The main issue with this theory is that there is no positive evidence that Picard made any changes to the program (not to mention the evidence that suggests he didn’t); Occam’s Razor would suggest that the theory that they were simply simulacrums of regular bullets should be preferable as it does not add any additional unnecessary terms.


 


Indeed – which would explain why the Borg are unable to run such shields on their drones.


It shows nothing of the sort. We know for a fact that it is posible to run a projectile shield for at least ten seconds with the power in two communicators (Fistfull of Data's). So again we don't know enough about the BPS power source to go either way on this.


Er... you yourself suggested that power issues might be the reason they can’t make shields like this (“I am simply trying to state that the power needed [for the shield] could eventually drain the drone of nessessary power needed to run primary implants”).


 


Mistake number one, the overconfidence of the collective.


...


Mistake number two, their arrogance with such a potentially volitile energy source


...


Lets see now, 29 vessels and over 600,000 drones killed for one little experiment, no they are not recless in any sort of way (and yes that is sarcasm)


We’re not talking about being overconfident, arrogant or reckless (and I’d dispute the latter; the Borg are not omniscient, that they miscalculated the effects of a substance whose properties were not fully understood is hardly a mark of recklessness), we’re talking about them purposefully choosing to lose drones when they have the option to not lose drones and still achieve the same objective.


 


If that is the case then why aren't they protected from phasers every time they board a federation ship?


This has been mentioned previously; either the Borg need to first find the initial frequency of the phaser in order to adapt to it as they don’t know it in advance, or they actually need to be attacked by a weapon before they positively identify that it poses them a threat and attempt to adapt accordingly, in a similar way to how they let people walk around their Cube until they actually start messing around with things.


 


That is what i have been trying to say, you don't have to download the entire interent to access this page, which would cause the overload that i have have been talking about, just the relevant information connected to it. Good example.


So in that case, why would a Borg drone not have access to the entire Collective memory (or more accurately, why would the Collective, when it perceives that Cube 547 is being attacked by phasers, not be to access the sum totality of its memory banks and instruct the drones using the relevant defensive information)?

Camorite

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POSTS: 5510

Report this Oct. 07 2010, 2:19 pm

 No, energy being detectable is not dependant on frequency; for example, thermal energy can be detected by heat signature, ionic energy concentration by the quantity of electrical impulses, etc.


Regardless, energy has to have a specific frequency that it exists at.


But as you say, that theory doesn’t match the evidence available (the Borg wounds are consistent with bullets, Picard isn’t specifically looking for the tommy-gun, he is rushed and doesn’t program the correct chapter), so why should we consider it?


I won't argue this point any more, except to point out that perhaps he got the wrong chapter because it took him longer to program the bullets then he had expected, and that he also programed them for all weapons in the program. (i know reaching, but it had to be pointed out).


The main issue with this theory is that there is no positive evidence that Picard made any changes to the program (not to mention the evidence that suggests he didn’t)


actaully it is circunstancial at best, as is the evidence that you gave that he didn't program them. in the end it is a pointless debate as it could either go one way or the other.


Er... you yourself suggested that power issues might be the reason they can’t make shields like this (“I am simply trying to state that the power needed [for the shield] could eventually drain the drone of nessessary power needed to run primary implants”).


and in case you didn't notice i also stated that we don't have enough data about the power source to make a definate decition.


We’re not talking about being overconfident, arrogant or reckless, we’re talking about them purposefully choosing to lose drones when they have the option to not lose drones and still achieve the same objective.


yes i know, but at the same time they could have attempted the experiment with only one small scout ship and a handfull of drones. In other words, they were overconfident in thier own ability to control the particle, as well as arrogant and reckless in the fact that they had so many ships and drones on hand for a particle that has been proven both unpredicatable and unstable by nature.


This has been mentioned previously; either the Borg need to first find the initial frequency of the phaser in order to adapt to it as they don’t know it in advance, or they actually need to be attacked by a weapon before they positively identify that it poses them a threat and attempt to adapt accordingly, in a similar way to how they let people walk around their Cube until they actually start messing around with things.


but the fact remains that they don't have this adaptation ready when they go into battle with a adversary that they have gone up against before.



So in that case, why would a Borg drone not have access to the entire Collective memory (or more accurately, why would the Collective, when it perceives that Cube 547 is being attacked by phasers, not be to access the sum totality of its memory banks and instruct the drones using the relevant defensive information)?





Um, they do have access to the entire collective memory, but as i have been trying to point out they don't have access to all parts at all times, only the information that is relevant to the current situation, hense why they are not adapted to weapons when they frist come against them.






"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Camorite

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POSTS: 5510

Report this Oct. 12 2010, 5:19 pm

Oh and Vorta, i am not sure if it was on this thread or one of the others that we are debating this on, but you still have not given sufficient canon evidence that it is ever stated that the BPS (Borg Persaonal Shield) only works on weapons with specific frequencies, which of course is the bassis for your entire case.


"What i Hate more then anything else is someone that thinks that they know everything. That must mean that I really hate myself", "Freedom is the right of all setient beings!" (Optimus Prime: Transformers), "That's on small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!" Neil Armstrong 8-5-30 to 8-25-12

Vorta_the_point

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POSTS: 624

Report this Oct. 14 2010, 11:07 am

Camorite - since most of what we're discussing here seems to be the same as what we were discussing in the Borg Cube vs Death Star thread, I'll end my discussion in this thread as I conceded the main OP a while ago (that the tommy-gun scene is not irrefutable proof that the Borg can't shield against ranged kinetic attacks since this particular group of Borg may not have had access to the full data of the Collective, being temporally displaced and out of contact with the primary Collective of that period as they were) so that we don't end up arguing identical points over two threads.

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