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Why all the hate towards Voyager? I think it's better than TNG, here's my reason why...

Sora

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POSTS: 2606

Report this Aug. 26 2010, 2:03 pm

I really don't understand the hate towards Voyager or Enterprise. But I'll save the Enterprise rant for later. This is about Voyager.


Why do fans dislike Voyager? Honestly, what is their to dislike about it? Voyager is overall far more interesting than TNG, because the problem with both TNG and TOS is the way in which they're made episodic.


When it comes to TOS, it's so episodic that ANY episodes could very well be the first episode, and NOTHING that happens in any episode will ever be mentioned again, or have any kind of consequence in the future. I feel that there's little to no character development in TOS for this reason. And it's why TOS is my least favorite out of the Trek series. TNG was very similar for the most part, however it got better. You had Q and Troi's mom cropping up once a season, you had Worf's Dishonor, Riker refusing his own ship, Data trying to be more human. Picard and Crusher not getting involved even though you know they both secretly want to.


 


TOS lacks all of these types of aspects, but those are just certain details about characters in TNG. For both TOS and TNG, it feels as if you're standing still for 3 seasons in TOS, and for 5 seasons in TNG. Season 6 and 7 of TNG feel more involved as this is when DS9 started.


I think Voyager and Enterprise, did this very well, which is keeping it episodic, while still making it feel like a series. It feels like it's really happening. You feel like you're there and involved with the characters and what they're going through. It doesn't just feel like a simple episode to a tv series.


DS9 had that aspect to it as well when it wasn't doing the story arcs.


 


People often like to bash Voyager saying they never ran into any real trouble and their time in the Delta Quadrent was easy and that it was boring, and had boring characters. Really it doesn't.


 


Think about it, I mean they don't know where they're at, and several members of the crew are dead. The first officer and chief medical officer died. Having to merge starfleet and maquis crewmembers was a difficult thing for both sides.


But the great character development that people say Voyager lacks is that they dealt with it and got passed their differences. People say Janeway was badly written, I don't think so.


Yes in Season 1 and 2, she's the very uptight we're doing it by the book Captain. And starting in Season 3 you can start to see her slowly moving away from that. She even specifically tells Tuvok in The Swarm that we're nowhere near Starfleet and she isn't about to add 15 months to their trip because of some bullies.


 


They dealt with the type of things you'd expect, having to find alternate energy sources, and conserving energy. The doctor had amazing development. He really starts to shine, again in The Swarm when his program has it's first breakdown, and that was great because DS9 was in it's 5th season at the time, and that's when Robert Picardo guest starred playing Zimmerman, and when they first started talking about the EMH mark 2, and both series pitched in for that storyline. Both series helped with the Maquis storyline. You see the Voyager crew find out that The Dominion have killed off all of the Maquis. You see the Doctor in the Alpha Quadrent dealing with a threat of the Dominion. You see Tom Paris grow from a prison jerk to a respectable friend and husband. You see Harry Kim grow from a niave ensign to a responsible officer.


 


You see 7 of 9 grow back into individuality.


Voyager used my favorite Villiain, The Borg, which TNG severaly underused. I loved all the Borg episodes on Voyager.


And that's just a name a few examples. You see each character grow and mature. Voyager was a great series.


The problem with Star Trek isn't the franchise, it isn't Rick Berman, it isn't UPN, (granted UPN wasn't very helpful) it's the fans.


 


The fans are spoiled, ungratful brats to put it simply. And they gave up on Trek because they don't know how to accept anything.


 


When TNG came out they complained because it wasn't enough like TOS, then with the later series they complained because they were too much like the other series.


They complained when the writers re-used a storyline. They complained when the writers tried something new, such as the Temporal Cold War just to give an example.


All Star Trek fans know how to do is complain. It's a shock we have as much Trek as we do.


The Star Wars fans absolutely HATE the prequel trilogy, but you'd never know it because they went out and they supported their franchise. It didn't matter to them that they thought it sucked, it was Star Wars, their franchise and they were going to support it no matter what.


But the Trek fans don't do that. They go point out every tiny little thing they possibly can that's wrong and then abandon the franchise and then wonder why there's not anymore.


To a neutral observer, it would a appear that being a Star Trek fan means that you hate Star Trek. Just my two cents, but I reccomend all the haters to go watch Voyager and Enterprise again with an open mind, and you might just realize, there is no bad Star Trek.


If you're to be a true fan, you can't love one piece of it and hate the rest. It's an all or nothing thing. It's all Star Trek, you either love it or you don't.

UNTRugby

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Report this Aug. 26 2010, 7:24 pm

Voyager had better stories overall than TNG but it didnt have any characters that people were really able to relate with. Also TNG best episodes were better than voyagers best episodes which helps fans ignore the bad ones.

Sora

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POSTS: 2606

Report this Aug. 26 2010, 8:29 pm

Quote: UNTRugby @ Aug. 26 2010, 7:24 pm

Voyager had better stories overall than TNG but it didnt have any characters that people were really able to relate with. Also TNG best episodes were better than voyagers best episodes which helps fans ignore the bad ones.


That's funny to me, because I always found myself being able to relate to nearly all of the Voyager characters on some level or another.

Live Long and Prosper

UNTRugby

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POSTS: 1212

Report this Aug. 26 2010, 9:13 pm

Quote: Sora @ Aug. 26 2010, 8:29 pm

Quote: UNTRugby @ Aug. 26 2010, 7:24 pm

Voyager had better stories overall than TNG but it didnt have any characters that people were really able to relate with. Also TNG best episodes were better than voyagers best episodes which helps fans ignore the bad ones.
That's funny to me, because I always found myself being able to relate to nearly all of the Voyager characters on some level or another.


1. A lot of voyagers characters had major flaws, not to say the people dont but they usually identify with their strengths and not thier weaknesses. Riker was pretty much the key demographic of TNG (males 18-34). Miles was the classic blue collar guy. Worf was the strong silent guy. They are a bit stereotypical but theres a reason they are stereotypes becuase there are a lot of people like that.

2. Voyagers actors werent bad but Stewart and Spiner were better than any 2 they had.

3. Also TNG built on the already popular species klingons, romulans, ect. While voyager couldnt really have a lot of those in the delta quadrant. The kazon and vidiians were pretty boring.

Sora

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POSTS: 2606

Report this Aug. 26 2010, 10:46 pm

Quote: UNTRugby @ Aug. 26 2010, 9:13 pm

Quote: Sora @ Aug. 26 2010, 8:29 pm

Quote: UNTRugby @ Aug. 26 2010, 7:24 pm

Voyager had better stories overall than TNG but it didnt have any characters that people were really able to relate with. Also TNG best episodes were better than voyagers best episodes which helps fans ignore the bad ones.
That's funny to me, because I always found myself being able to relate to nearly all of the Voyager characters on some level or another.
1. A lot of voyagers characters had major flaws, not to say the people dont but they usually identify with their strengths and not thier weaknesses. Riker was pretty much the key demographic of TNG (males 18-34). Miles was the classic blue collar guy. Worf was the strong silent guy. They are a bit stereotypical but theres a reason they are stereotypes becuase there are a lot of people like that. 2. Voyagers actors werent bad but Stewart and Spiner were better than any 2 they had. 3. Also TNG built on the already popular species klingons, romulans, ect. While voyager couldnt really have a lot of those in the delta quadrant. The kazon and vidiians were pretty boring.


I agree that the Vidieans sucked. I never liked them. But The Kazon storyline was pretty good, and honestly, I felt like The Kazon were very much like Klingons. Particuarly TOS Klingons. But that storyline ended with the Season 3 Premiere.

Season 3 you just really had random storyline's because they had no villains in Season 3.

Then of course Season 4 is when The Borg made their appearance, after the success of First Contact. Which like I said earlier, I always loved The Borg. I hated how they were meant to be the big baddies of TNG, and they seriously, got used in 6 episodes total, out of 176 episodes.

Q-Who, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, I'Borg, and Descent Part 1 and 2.

I'm sorry but you can't use your main villain in only 6 episodes.

So I was perfectly fine with Voyager adopting them so to speak. Plus it also made sense. When Q threw the Enterprise accross the galaxy in Q-Who, they don't specifically say the Delta Quadrent, but who's to say it wasn't?

And in First Contact, before the Borg are brought into Voyager, Crusher says something about the Borg being in the Delta Quadrent.

I never minded The Malon or The Hirogen.

In fact I LOVE how Janeway breaks the Prime Directive in Season 4 by giving The Hirogen holodeck technology, thinking that in the Delta Quadrent where Starfleet is nowhere in sight, she's going to have to break the rules from time to time if the situation calls for it to survive, and then it comes back to get her in Flesh and Blood from Season 7. That was just awesome!!

Live Long and Prosper

Adventure9

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Report this Aug. 26 2010, 11:44 pm

I have seen the Original Star Trek, Voyager, and Enterprise and some of the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.  From what I have seen, they are some of my favorite series.  I guess I would not have much right to say which is my most favorite yet considering I haven't seen all of TNG or DS9, but from what I have seen so far I like them all, Voyager stands out most to me because there is more identification I can relate to, I really like TOS partly because it was the first one I was introduced to and because of the characters and at least some of the episodes storyline. I really liked Enterprise because it was a continueation of Star Trek and I also like characters and the storyline like TOS, TOS stands out more probably because I have known it longer.  All of the series are great.

UNTRugby

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Report this Aug. 27 2010, 5:12 am

>>I agree that the Vidieans sucked. I never liked them. But The Kazon storyline was pretty good, and honestly, I felt like The Kazon were very much like Klingons. Particuarly TOS Klingons. But that storyline ended with the Season 3 Premiere.

The Kazon wernt as good of warriors as the klingons, didnt have a sense of honor like the kligons and wernt even a warp capable species, they stole all their ships. I dont think they knew how to build or repair them and they didnt even seem smart enough to operate them.

>>Then of course Season 4 is when The Borg made their appearance, after the success of First Contact. Which like I said earlier, I always loved The Borg. I hated how they were meant to be the big baddies of TNG, and they seriously, got used in 6 episodes total, out of 176 episodes.
Q-Who, The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1 and 2, I'Borg, and Descent Part 1 and 2.
I'm sorry but you can't use your main villain in only 6 episodes.

The borg weren't originally meant to be the bad guys. They weren't even supposed to be cyborgs. So that hurt their episode count. Also they are from across the galaxy so its hard to have a lot to do with them and just having them in a few episodes kept them interesting and mysterious. They also had other enemies to deal with the romulans, the cardissians (which were better than any villain race introduced in voyager) and the maquis

>>In fact I LOVE how Janeway breaks the Prime Directive in Season 4 by giving The Hirogen holodeck technology, thinking that in the Delta Quadrent where Starfleet is nowhere in sight, she's going to have to break the rules from time to time if the situation calls for it to survive, and then it comes back to get her in Flesh and Blood from Season 7. That was just awesome!!

I like her breaking the prime directive too but what i hate is how she flip flopped on it through the whole series. It wasnt even like a gradual change over time which would have been better. Its literally back and forth every episode which made her just awful as a captain IMO

2takesfrakes

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Report this Aug. 27 2010, 9:08 am

"If you're to be a true fan, you can't love one piece of it and hate the rest.
It's an all or nothing thing. It's all Star Trek, you either love it or you don't."

That "Love it or leave it" mindset's more than a little myopic, I should think.
I watched VOYAGER from its pilot on. It was alright. If there's fans that hated
it, the show still had a good run and it's still in reruns. It's not a big deal.

Dendodge

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Report this Aug. 27 2010, 10:22 am

I like Voyager.
I also like TNG.

They both have good points and bad points. I actually quite enjoy the episodic format of TOS and TNG, but it can also be nice to watch the story unfold over time, as with Voyager and DS9.

Voyager posed a unique dilemma compared to other series—the whole "trapped in the Delta Quadrant" thing allowed for a different approach, just as setting DS9 on a space station had a few years earlier.

It was nice to see some new bad guys unique to Voyager, but it's also nice to see more detailed alien cultures, as in DS9 and (to a lesser extent) TNG.

While they follow the same basic formula, the shows are so different that there are bound to be some people that love one and hate the other, and, really, it is difficult to compare the two (comparing TOS and TNG, on the other hand, is substantially easier, as they were basically the same series with different characters).

FriendlyTrekker

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Report this Aug. 27 2010, 11:42 am

I reject a "Love it or Leave it" mentality.  The only ST series I stopped watching was "Enterprise" and that was early in the third season.  Leaving the show doesn't mean I don't love ST; the show simply became unwatchable for me.


I watched "Voyager" through the end during its original run and found it tiresome for the last couple of seasons, in large part because I felt Seven of Nine was being emphasized to the detriment of the other characters.   Recently, I rewatched the entire series on DVD and found that it was better than I remembered it.


Whether that happens with "Enterprise" I can't say, but it became a chore to watch it while it was airing and I refuse to spend my free time doing something I don't enjoy. 


 


 


 


 


 

Sora

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Report this Aug. 27 2010, 12:13 pm

Quote: Dendodge @ Aug. 27 2010, 10:22 am

I like Voyager. I also like TNG. They both have good points and bad points. I actually quite enjoy the episodic format of TOS and TNG, but it can also be nice to watch the story unfold over time, as with Voyager and DS9. Voyager posed a unique dilemma compared to other series—the whole "trapped in the Delta Quadrant" thing allowed for a different approach, just as setting DS9 on a space station had a few years earlier. It was nice to see some new bad guys unique to Voyager, but it's also nice to see more detailed alien cultures, as in DS9 and (to a lesser extent) TNG. While they follow the same basic formula, the shows are so different that there are bound to be some people that love one and hate the other, and, really, it is difficult to compare the two (comparing TOS and TNG, on the other hand, is substantially easier, as they were basically the same series with different characters).


I can certainly agree that TOS and TNG are very similar.

And something you mentioned, about how DS9 built on alot of what TNG laid down, and then Voyager was also very unique in a totally different environment and situation, that made DS9 and Voyager far more interesting and entertaining for me.

Because for the most part, with only a handful of exceptions, the TNG crew seemed to nearly always have an answer for just about everything. And seemed to do it with little to no trouble at all. And the TOS crew did that alot as well. But again what makes Enterprise awesome to me is how they don't even have the Prime Directive yet, and their weapons suck, and their ship can only go warp 5, and it's a challenge to even get it that fast.

So with the NX-01 crew, nobody had the answers to anything. Plus with First Contact being my favorite Trek film, that made Enterprise even better seeing as how they often made some type of reference to First Contact or some detail that came from First Contact.

I just find it amusing how the majority prefer TOS and TNG, when those were the simplest of all the series. DS9, Voyager and Enterprise, all got far more complicated and complex than TOS and TNG ever did. IMO of course.

Live Long and Prosper

chr33355

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Report this Aug. 29 2010, 9:22 am

Voyager is hated for several reasons
1. Zero episode to episode continuity for the first part of the show (hell the first bit of episode to episode continuity we get is the dam gothic novel)
2. limited character growth in all but two characters
3. magic reset button
4. techonobabble for the sake of technobabble
5. Lots of potential ruined by horrible writing or just plain laziness
6. insisted on relying on viewer stupidity and Brand name rather than giving us quality entertainment
7. completely neutering the Q and the Borg making the Q nothing more than the Greek Parthenon and the Borg hive minded cyborg space zombies.

Kesfan74656

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Report this Aug. 29 2010, 11:04 am

I'm going to assume you didn't couch we longtime Voyager fans in the ''viewer stupidity'' category. Let's hope not. Any series can have cause for some well-meant critique, but Voyager, sadly, keeps continuing to be in the bulls-eye of whatever cadre of fans.I'm not saying that some things might have been made better, but, it certainly managed to remain on the air for seven years-just like TNG.NO- I don't go througfh and anaylze everything about a show, that's not me. But I know what draws me to a tv series, a major part of that being GOOD CHARACTERS, people one can admire and find the best aspects of humanity/sentient beings in. Voyager, IMO, had that. They were, unlike some of the reality shows and such, exemplifying the better angels of our natures, not ''Beating the other guy'' or showcasing the 'real lives' of people and their troubles.Sure, we've all watched some of that, but, at the end of the day, you want to see positive entertainment in the long haul. Voyager had that. I have spent seven years and going with this 'family', and no critiques, deserved, or not, will change my feelings about it.


''If I were captain, i'd open every crack in the universe, and peek inside, just like Captain Janeway does''-Kes, ''The Cloud''

Kesfan74656

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Report this Aug. 29 2010, 4:11 pm

DUH!! ALREADY THERE! I think a fleet of Klingon D7s would be easier....I've defended Jon and co as much as STV. Too bad I can't get paid for it, it's almost like a job...


''If I were captain, i'd open every crack in the universe, and peek inside, just like Captain Janeway does''-Kes, ''The Cloud''

KIRSPOKOTTY

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Report this Aug. 29 2010, 9:53 pm

I hope Voyager will live on just as the rest of the "quadrants" series does.
Star Trek and its vision is reachable.,but we need to work together people.

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