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The President Obama appreciation thread

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 01 2013, 4:44 pm

Nanomite

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Report this Nov. 02 2013, 8:56 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Nov. 01 2013, 9:23 am

>
So ignoring the Constitution and a myriad of laws is the answer?  Don't get me wrong - there is a time for surveillance of someone suspsected of criminal activity, but there are Constitutionally legal ways of doing this.

>

If an international criminal network has a foothold in your security forces regardless of how small, maybe with only information and communications, they still may quickly take over knowing too much. If later and attacking with methods and devices stolen from the law claiming to be above the law then the law reserves the right under United Nations International Laws which supercede all other laws on Earth to search for terroist communications hidden behind your love you dear forever letters while you complain about security measures that keep travel and lodging for civilians and diplomats safe again. You, BamBam, are welcome, and you owe me a beer. Ale.

Nanomite

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Report this Nov. 02 2013, 9:02 am

Imagine the cloak stealth technology available to NICO5 and other letters etc these days.


Space is not the final frontier rather the beginning of new horizons to new frontiers.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 02 2013, 10:17 am

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 02 2013, 8:56 am

>
If an international criminal network has a foothold in your security forces regardless of how small, maybe with only information and communications, they still may quickly take over knowing too much. If later and attacking with methods and devices stolen from the law claiming to be above the law then the law reserves the right under United Nations International Laws which supercede all other laws on Earth to search for terroist communications hidden behind your love you dear forever letters while you complain about security measures that keep travel and lodging for civilians and diplomats safe again. You, BamBam, are welcome, and you owe me a beer. Ale.

>
While I do understand your position, but I see several flaws here.... the biggest being that countries are sovereign.... While the USA can do treaties, the UN does NOT supercede the US Constitution.  (Just like the UN's constant efforts to outlaw all gun ownership hasn't been accepted in the USA.)  I took a oath to the US Constitution - not the UN.  I am NOT, and never will be, a citizen of the Earth.


Remember - the NSA has the authority to do foreign intelligence (which covers specifically identified people in the USA interacting with foreign entities,) but that does NOT cover general spying on all US citizens.  General warrants are blatantly illegal. (Which was one of the reasons the 4th Amendment was created.)


 


Oh... and if you want to trade your liberty for safety, let me remind you of a couple of things:


"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

“This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.” - Plato

Nanomite

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Nov. 02 2013, 10:17 am

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 02 2013, 8:56 am

>

>
If an international criminal network has a foothold in your security forces regardless of how small, maybe with only information and communications, they still may quickly take over knowing too much. If later and attacking with methods and devices stolen from the law claiming to be above the law then the law reserves the right under United Nations International Laws which supercede all other laws on Earth to search for terroist communications hidden behind your love you dear forever letters while you complain about security measures that keep travel and lodging for civilians and diplomats safe again. You, BamBam, are welcome, and you owe me a beer. Ale.

>
While I do understand your position, but I see several flaws here.... the biggest being that countries are sovereign.... While the USA can do treaties, the UN does NOT supercede the US Constitution.  (Just like the UN's constant efforts to outlaw all gun ownership hasn't been accepted in the USA.)  I took a oath to the US Constitution - not the UN.  I am NOT, and never will be, a citizen of the Earth.

Remember - the NSA has the authority to do foreign intelligence (which covers specifically identified people in the USA interacting with foreign entities,) but that does NOT cover general spying on all US citizens.  General warrants are blatantly illegal. (Which was one of the reasons the 4th Amendment was created.)

 

Oh... and if you want to trade your liberty for safety, let me remind you of a couple of things:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

“This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.” - Plato


All right, forget the beer.

I am not disputing the fact that the U.N. does not supercede the U.S. Constitution but, if a country is silently invaded through secret intelligeces to take over in secret then that country is no longer themselves sovereign rather occupied by hostile forces. It is then the responsibility of the U.N. and the international community to help where and when they can. If they do not then they are either part of the invading forces or themselves already invaded and taken over.

General spying on all U.S. citizens? What organzation could possibly spy on each and every U.S. citizen every moment of everyday and why would anybody? That is nonsense. Roaming and monitoring the communications networks looking for terrorists not using user names like 'Terrorist666' while she or he messages 'Terrorist616' is in no way invading the privacy of any citizens.

Are you claiming the N.S.A. or other such entities are being diverted from their mandate to fight crime and have begun a new hobby of reading love mails which now supercedes their interest in national and international security? Are you claiming that executives and politicians openly share sensitive material via emai and that the N.S.A. is angry with them for a lost poker game? When advanced drone technology right out of the Pentagon is used to fly passenger planes into U.N. towers then I pray that the N.S.A. does all they possibly can to help justice prevail including internet sweeping software looking for terroist activity and passing over citizens chatting without signaling everytime the average citizen communicates rather when a terrorist pretending to be a citizen becomes suspicious or more. THEN the N.S.A. will take a closer look after being signaled of a potential threat. And, believe me, all private U.S. communications from loyal U.S. citizens are not targeted and if any are looked at closer and turn out to be innocent of crime I am sure nobody at the N.S.A. remembers or even cares what any innocent communications have to do with or do you think they have a collection of billions upon billions of private messages they read to invade privacy.

Oh, btw, I and we did not trade our liberty or liberties for anything but when that liberty is silently threatened or a silent invasion ends liberty while advertising that liberty is standing strong while the arts and entertainment industries fade and high society monarchies and celebrities (the only ones with the influence, extra time and money to make a difference before the military does it for them) bathe in luxury and wealth like never before and party like never before while the rest of us barely get by or worse like never before then I must conclude that our liberty was in jeopardy and hard line security saves and rescued our liberty and now is cleaning the mess made by the invaders. My liberty is safe thanks to my loyalty and trust in my organization of security. If the N.S.A. were spying on all U.S. citizens then there would be no unemployment and that citizen spying would be covered by some story like the N.S.A. working with an international alliance cleaning up internal communications that were being interfered with and manipulated leading to leaks by invaders to create a media frenzy.

When Plato refers to a tyrrant he surely does not mean that our own military security forces are the tyrrant pretending to protect when they first appear after being set up for national security.

When Benjamin mentions giving up liberties to obtain temporary security he did not mean that it is a lousy idea  giving up certain liberties to survive and remain free.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:04 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>I am not disputing the fact that the U.N. does not supercede the U.S. Constitution but, if a country is silently invaded through secret intelligeces to take over in secret then that country is no longer themselves sovereign rather occupied by hostile forces. It is then the responsibility of the U.N. and the international community to help where and when they can. If they do not then they are either part of the invading forces or themselves already invaded and taken over.
Sooo... it's UN's responsibility whenever something happens and they don't/can't do anything about it?  Nope ... it's the fault of the people doing the harm and it's each country's responsibility to protect themselves.  Yes, they may enter into mutual defense pacts or get assistance from another nation sometimes, but in the end, it's still that country's responsibility to defend itself.


We can apply this at the personal level - it is my responsibility to protect myself and my family - that principle is as old as life itself.  (The right to self defense.)  That doesn't mean that I don't get assistance from the neighbors or police sometimes, but in the end, it's my responsibilty.  When a group of thugs tried to rob me about four years ago, I didn't say, "Wait a minute, let me call the police!"  Of course, it was the thugs fault that they were trying to rob me, but I took the responsibility and protected myself.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:14 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>General spying on all U.S. citizens? What organzation could possibly spy on each and every U.S. citizen every moment of everyday and why would anybody? That is nonsense. Roaming and monitoring the communications networks looking for terrorists not using user names like 'Terrorist666' while she or he messages 'Terrorist616' is in no way invading the privacy of any citizens.
I think you'd be very surprised how much data they have accumulated and how much they can do.  If you go back through this thread, you'd see just a small fraction of what they do.  They have access to everyone's e-mail if you use one of the big e-mail services (gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc.)  They have access to everyone's chat sessions.  They have access to everyone's phone calls.  They have access to a ton of information and are datamining exabytes of data for different things.  Now, if they were only doing this to specific people that are under investigation, that wouldn't be a problem, but why do they need a copy of a phone message I left for my wife reminding her of an appointment or to run by the grocery store?  Why do they need to know everyone in my contact list and everyone that they contact and everyone that they contact?  Yes, it is absolutely an invasion of privacy and a blatant violation of the Constitution.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:18 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>Are you claiming the N.S.A. or other such entities are being diverted from their mandate to fight crime and have begun a new hobby of reading love mails which now supercedes their interest in national and international security?
Uh... yes!  I've shared information about that exact thing happening.  The NSA has even admitted that this has been happening.


And as I mentioned before, the NSA cannot be used in criminal investigations - only on people that would want to harm the USA via foreign intelligence.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:22 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>Are you claiming that executives and politicians openly share sensitive material via emai and that the N.S.A. is angry with them for a lost poker game?
Actually, some of this has already been happening.  I don't know about poker games, but yes, there have been cases where people from different agencies have illegally shared information with another group that could not have legal access to it.  It's even happened at the White House.  And the more time that goes by, the more events like this that keep coming out.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:25 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>When advanced drone technology right out of the Pentagon is used to fly passenger planes into U.N. towers then I pray that the N.S.A. does all they possibly can to help justice prevail including internet sweeping software looking for terroist activity and passing over citizens chatting without signaling everytime the average citizen communicates rather when a terrorist pretending to be a citizen becomes suspicious or more. THEN the N.S.A. will take a closer look after being signaled of a potential threat. And, believe me, all private U.S. communications from loyal U.S. citizens are not targeted and if any are looked at closer and turn out to be innocent of crime I am sure nobody at the N.S.A. remembers or even cares what any innocent communications have to do with or do you think they have a collection of billions upon billions of private messages they read to invade privacy.
That's the problem... tyranny doesn't care what excuse they make for committing the atrocities.  You may not care that the government is reading your e-mail, texts, chat sessions or making a list of every contact you have or listening to your messages, but I do!

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:41 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>Oh, btw, I and we did not trade our liberty or liberties for anything but when that liberty is silently threatened or a silent invasion ends liberty while advertising that liberty is standing strong while the arts and entertainment industries fade and high society monarchies and celebrities (the only ones with the influence, extra time and money to make a difference before the military does it for them) bathe in luxury and wealth like never before and party like never before while the rest of us barely get by or worse like never before then I must conclude that our liberty was in jeopardy and hard line security saves and rescued our liberty and now is cleaning the mess made by the invaders. My liberty is safe thanks to my loyalty and trust in my organization of security.
Guess you've never been stopped by the federal government at a "checkpoint", ordered (at gunpoint) to get out of the car while the government searches it for no reason.  I guess you've never taken a flight where you have to deal with the TSA saying what you can and can't have (included by a full-body "naked" scan where they saved off the images.)


Even outside of the government spying and "security" measures to intimidate citizens, have you ever looked at a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of laws and regulations that constantly infringe on our liberties?  (Reminds me of the old saying, "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.")


 


And I'm not sure what your point is about people that "bathe in luxury" compared to others.  I maybe wrong, but you seem upset that some people are more successful than others.  Remember, we have the right to PURSUE happiness... happiness is not guaranteed.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:48 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>If the N.S.A. were spying on all U.S. citizens then there would be no unemployment and that citizen spying would be covered by some story like the N.S.A. working with an international alliance cleaning up internal communications that were being interfered with and manipulated leading to leaks by invaders to create a media frenzy.
Why do you think that there would be no unemployment?  Most everyone in the USA has a digital footprint - which is actually very telling... and since they have access to pretty much all of it....


And you need to remember who the media is and who they support.  If it had been exposed that the GOP had been doing this, they would have gone wild with it, but since it's the DNC/Obama currently... they almost don't care.  But when the GOP get back into power and continue the same tyranny, then the media will get on the bandwagon.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>When Plato refers to a tyrrant he surely does not mean that our own military security forces are the tyrrant pretending to protect when they first appear after being set up for national security.
I think you're missing the point.  How would a populace accept tyranny?  If someone comes in and just starts doing all these things, the people would immediately rebel, but if something bad happens and then someone comes and and says that they're to "protect" others from the bad people... and then implement the very same programs, people often accept it.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 12:58 pm

Quote: Nanomite @ Nov. 04 2013, 2:59 am

>When Benjamin mentions giving up liberties to obtain temporary security he did not mean that it is a lousy idea  giving up certain liberties to survive and remain free.
I think that you misread what Franklin wrote - I suggest that you read it again... he said that people don't deserve either one if they give up their liberty for security.


And think about what you just wrote.... how can you give up "certain liberties" and also "remain free" ??  That's like saying that if I have something and give it up, I still have it.


If you were put in a jail cell and guaranteed your survival, how free are you?


 


As Patrick Henry so eloquently shouted, "Give me liberty, or give me death!!!"  (No, he didn't say "give me security....")


If the colonists only wanted safety, they wouldn't have fought a war for their liberty.  And for some reason, that statue in NY harbor is called the "Statue of Liberty", not the "Statue of Safety."

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

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Report this Nov. 04 2013, 5:32 pm

Political Cartoons by Michael Ramirez

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