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The President Obama appreciation thread

Invader_Wishfire

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 27518

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 3:41 am

"My question is when are the Democrats/liberals..."

And that is where your question falls short. Democrats are not liberal. Not by a long shot. That's why actual liberals oppose Obama. Of course, it's hard to tell with the conservative media...

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darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 397

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 9:04 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 24 2012, 9:18 pm

>

>Sidenote:  Historically, the word "Liberal" were for those people that supported liberty (notice the same root word?)  Early last century, those that wanted to move towards a larger government and less individual freedoms were called Progressives, but they got such a bad name, they started calling themselves liberals.  Sadly, they still have the same agenda - destroy the US Constitution.

>


The left are called "liberals" because they have more liberal positions on issues regarding individual liberty like gay marriage and abortion. The only liberty the right seems to care about is economic liberty.


Also, it was the Constitution that created the powerful central government that you despise. It was the Constitution that gave Congress the power to tax (redistribute) and make laws (regulate). It was the Federalist Papers that helped ratify the Constitution. If you want to blame someone for "big government" then blame your beloved Founders.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 9:22 am

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 26 2012, 9:04 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 24 2012, 9:18 pm

>

>

>Sidenote:  Historically, the word "Liberal" were for those people that supported liberty (notice the same root word?)  Early last century, those that wanted to move towards a larger government and less individual freedoms were called Progressives, but they got such a bad name, they started calling themselves liberals.  Sadly, they still have the same agenda - destroy the US Constitution.

>

The left are called "liberals" because they have more liberal positions on issues regarding individual liberty like gay marriage and abortion. The only liberty the right seems to care about is economic liberty.

Also, it was the Constitution that created the powerful central government that you despise. It was the Constitution that gave Congress the power to tax (redistribute) and make laws (regulate). It was the Federalist Papers that helped ratify the Constitution. If you want to blame someone for "big government" then blame your beloved Founders.

Wow... you really haven't actually read history, have you?  You just spout a little bit and completely out of context.  I highly suggest that you actually read the words of our founding fathers - they're available online and can be downloaded for free - you just invest some time to study.  Read their personal letters, their public proclamations, their debates, etc.


The US Constititon was written to ensure individual liberty and keep the federal government small - that's why Obama complains that the Constitution doesn't give him enough power.  If you actually read the Constitution and the Constitutional debate and the Federalist & Anti-Federalist Papers, you'd know that the Constitution was designed to keep the federal government extremely limited.


Taxation is NOT about redistribution of wealth - it's supposed to be about funding Constitutional government.  Take a look at the enumerated powers (Article I, Section 8) - that's the only govermental powers they legally have.  Only those that support tyranny support redistribution via government.


The word "regulation" has been perverted over the last 200 years.  When it was written in the Constitution, it meant to make commerce regular (look it up in the dictionary of the time,) not to crush or control it.  The goal was to open up commerce between the states because the states were actually inhibiting trade.


Most of the Founding Fathers hated big government.... they knew the dangers and that's why they fought a revolution to separate from Britain.


 


 


But none of what you wrote suprises me.... I see too many "man on the street" interviews and the vast majority of people haven't a clue about our roots and can't answer the simplest of questions.


VulcanKat

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 715

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 4:20 pm

Why do people label there beliefs? Left or right or middle. What that does is create clicks where you have to believe in a set of principles in order to be considered part of that click. Therefore, you don't form your own opinions based on objective analysis so much. That's why we have these rediculous "liberals" vs. "conservative" fights. 

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 4:36 pm

Quote: VulcanKat @ Oct. 26 2012, 4:20 pm

>

>Why do people label there beliefs? Left or right or middle. What that does is create clicks where you have to believe in a set of principles in order to be considered part of that click. Therefore, you don't form your own opinions based on objective analysis so much. That's why we have these rediculous "liberals" vs. "conservative" fights. 

>
Because labels are supposed to explain something - they're supposed to have meaning.  When someone says they're a Constitutionalist, that's supposed to mean something the opposite of a communist/socialist... or labeling someone based on the citizenship (American vs. X.)  When someone says that they're married, that's a label that's supposed to mean something.


But, yes, labels can be used to separate people - especially when a label is a misnomer or when a person doesn't quite fit 100% of the rest of the group (but who does?)


darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 397

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 10:16 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 26 2012, 9:22 am

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 26 2012, 9:04 am

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 24 2012, 9:18 pm

>

>

>

>Sidenote:  Historically, the word "Liberal" were for those people that supported liberty (notice the same root word?)  Early last century, those that wanted to move towards a larger government and less individual freedoms were called Progressives, but they got such a bad name, they started calling themselves liberals.  Sadly, they still have the same agenda - destroy the US Constitution.

>

The left are called "liberals" because they have more liberal positions on issues regarding individual liberty like gay marriage and abortion. The only liberty the right seems to care about is economic liberty.

Also, it was the Constitution that created the powerful central government that you despise. It was the Constitution that gave Congress the power to tax (redistribute) and make laws (regulate). It was the Federalist Papers that helped ratify the Constitution. If you want to blame someone for "big government" then blame your beloved Founders.

Wow... you really haven't actually read history, have you?  You just spout a little bit and completely out of context.  I highly suggest that you actually read the words of our founding fathers - they're available online and can be downloaded for free - you just invest some time to study.  Read their personal letters, their public proclamations, their debates, etc.

The US Constititon was written to ensure individual liberty and keep the federal government small - that's why Obama complains that the Constitution doesn't give him enough power.  If you actually read the Constitution and the Constitutional debate and the Federalist & Anti-Federalist Papers, you'd know that the Constitution was designed to keep the federal government extremely limited.

Taxation is NOT about redistribution of wealth - it's supposed to be about funding Constitutional government.  Take a look at the enumerated powers (Article I, Section 8) - that's the only govermental powers they legally have.  Only those that support tyranny support redistribution via government.

The word "regulation" has been perverted over the last 200 years.  When it was written in the Constitution, it meant to make commerce regular (look it up in the dictionary of the time,) not to crush or control it.  The goal was to open up commerce between the states because the states were actually inhibiting trade.

Most of the Founding Fathers hated big government.... they knew the dangers and that's why they fought a revolution to separate from Britain.

 

 

But none of what you wrote suprises me.... I see too many "man on the street" interviews and the vast majority of people haven't a clue about our roots and can't answer the simplest of questions.


The main purpose of the Constitution was to replace the weak federal government created by the Articles of Confederation. It wasn't until after the Constitution went into effect that the Bill of Rights was included. Even then, the Constitution did nothing to end slavery and only male landowners of a certain race had the right to vote or hold office. You're right that the Founders wanted to keep government small but only in the sense that they wanted to keep power consolidated within a very small percentage of the population. It's been over 200 years and not much has changed in that respect.

Regarding taxes, under the General Welfare Clause, the Constitution gave Congress the power to use tax money to do three things: pay debts, provide for the common defense and provide for the general welfare. Some Federalists like Madison felt that "general welfare" was to be interpreted narrowly while others like Hamilton felt that it should be interpreted more broadly. Hamilton's view prevailed during the administrations of Washington and Adams but from 1800 to 1936, Madison's view prevailed. In 1936, the Supreme Court ruled that the power to tax and spend was an independent power and that the General Welfare Clause gives Congress power it might not derive anywhere else. In 1937, the Supreme Court ruled that Social Security was constitutionaly permissible as an exercise of the federal power to spend for the general welfare. Furthermore, it conferred upon Congress a plenary power to impose taxes and to spend money for the general welfare subject almost entirely to Congress's own discretion.

As far as regulations go, I was refering to the fact that Congress holds legislative power.


law, noun


-the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.


regulation, noun


-a law, rule, or other order prescribed by authority, especially to regulate conduct.

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 397

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 10:22 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 26 2012, 4:36 pm

Quote: VulcanKat @ Oct. 26 2012, 4:20 pm

>

>

>Why do people label there beliefs? Left or right or middle. What that does is create clicks where you have to believe in a set of principles in order to be considered part of that click. Therefore, you don't form your own opinions based on objective analysis so much. That's why we have these rediculous "liberals" vs. "conservative" fights. 

>
Because labels are supposed to explain something - they're supposed to have meaning.  When someone says they're a Constitutionalist, that's supposed to mean something the opposite of a communist/socialist... or labeling someone based on the citizenship (American vs. X.)  When someone says that they're married, that's a label that's supposed to mean something.

But, yes, labels can be used to separate people - especially when a label is a misnomer or when a person doesn't quite fit 100% of the rest of the group (but who does?)


It's funny you say that labels are supposed to mean something considering you use them so inaccurately.

maihem

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5

Report this Oct. 26 2012, 11:16 pm

Yeah spend ur way out of debt that works really well and obama care is just socialism. Take obamacare health or pay a fine that sounds like freedom. And who pays for this, you do, the tax payer with higher and higher insurance preiums this includes your car insurance, insurance for your house medical insurance thru your employer eventaully driving preiums so high it will put many out of business and your job along with it. Oh yeah where are all the jobs Obama has created???? Yeah the gov has all the answers for a people who want to be taken care of and led around like cattle to a slaughter house. Wake up before we wake in a socialist state.

FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 8:56 am

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 26 2012, 10:22 pm

Quote: FleetAdmiral_BamBam @ Oct. 26 2012, 4:36 pm

Quote: VulcanKat @ Oct. 26 2012, 4:20 pm

>

>

>

>Why do people label there beliefs? Left or right or middle. What that does is create clicks where you have to believe in a set of principles in order to be considered part of that click. Therefore, you don't form your own opinions based on objective analysis so much. That's why we have these rediculous "liberals" vs. "conservative" fights. 

>
Because labels are supposed to explain something - they're supposed to have meaning.  When someone says they're a Constitutionalist, that's supposed to mean something the opposite of a communist/socialist... or labeling someone based on the citizenship (American vs. X.)  When someone says that they're married, that's a label that's supposed to mean something.

But, yes, labels can be used to separate people - especially when a label is a misnomer or when a person doesn't quite fit 100% of the rest of the group (but who does?)

It's funny you say that labels are supposed to mean something considering you use them so inaccurately.

No - you just disagree with me telling the truth.


 


Let's go non-political.  Let's say we're comparing two groups (doesn't matter if it's people or money or items or whatever.)  Group A has 5000 and increases by 1000.  Group B has 5 and increases by 20.  Both groups say they grew the most and, depending on their perspective, both are correct and incorrect.  If we look at just the numbers 1000 vs. 20, Group A grew the most, but if we look at percentages, 20% vs. 400%, Group B grew the most.


This is why it's important to define our words.  Words have meaning and some of us actually try to use the words correctly instead of redefining things.


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 9:03 am

Quote: maihem @ Oct. 26 2012, 11:16 pm

>

>Yeah spend ur way out of debt that works really well and obama care is just socialism. Take obamacare health or pay a fine that sounds like freedom. And who pays for this, you do, the tax payer with higher and higher insurance preiums this includes your car insurance, insurance for your house medical insurance thru your employer eventaully driving preiums so high it will put many out of business and your job along with it. Oh yeah where are all the jobs Obama has created???? Yeah the gov has all the answers for a people who want to be taken care of and led around like cattle to a slaughter house. Wake up before we wake in a socialist state.

>
Sadly, we're already in a socialist state, but because it's not officially called that, people don't realize it.  The question is, how long before the majority of people do realize it and will it be in time to restore our Constitutional Republic?


FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 9:29 am

So why, in Obama's "transparent" administration, is he still refusing to answer questions about Benghazi?  Is it because people are starting to question his lies?

darmokattanagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 397

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 2:45 pm

capitalism, noun

-an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

socialism, noun

-a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Invader_Wishfire

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 27518

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 3:25 pm

Leave it up to BamBam to see a society that is in part defined by capitalism run amok and call it "socialism."

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FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 3:36 pm

Quote: darmokattanagra @ Oct. 27 2012, 2:45 pm

>

>capitalism, noun

-an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

socialism, noun

-a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

>
Very good.... now apply it....  Government controls companies via regulations, or just plain takes them over and fires people (like at GM) and determining which ones should live or die  (And if you don't lobby/bribe Congress, they attack you)....  Federal government owns most of the natural resources and refuses to let us use them.  Federal government confiscates land from the states and individuals (take a look at the Federal Real Property Profile)...  Federal government redistributes money/capital (both to corporations and individuals)....  Federal government controls the medical care system..... Federal Government controls the education system.


We could go on and on and on... but the basic mentality of our government is that they can take what they want and tax and control what little they leave behind.


 



FleetAdmiral_BamBam

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 46360

Report this Oct. 27 2012, 3:43 pm

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