Star Trek

Quote (Yanks @ June 18 2010, 9:27 pm)

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 18 2010, 9:54 am) Just looking for a general feeling from the people here on this issue. This is something I have run into on this web site. People who are not fans of Star Trek 2009 movie at least here on this site have by a vocal group of members been defined as "if not completely crazy but some how un stable members of society." I.E. Nerds, Trek Purists and or people that just don't have a firm grip on reality. So is it true, if you don't like the new movie even if you rate it as not a good flick THEN you are some how off your rocker???? And if you totally hate/dislike this movie then you are in serous need of professional help. Or is it okay to not like this movie and still be eligable to be defined as a normal member of society. What say you? I know exactly how you feel. I'm an Enterprise fan and have been since the first time I saw it. So I know what it is like to be in the minority and be on these boards. Now, I was not in favor of the direction the powers to be wanted to take this franchise. I was convinced it was going to be a flop. I was pleased to be wrong though. That only means more trek. I did however enjoy the movie the 2nd time I saw it. The first time I was too worried about how it was going to do.

Like Yanks, I am an Enterprise fan, and I also am fine with the new movie in that it could bring more Star Trek to the big and small screen for fans to enjoy.  

I thought the actual movie was an average storyline, the special effects were well done, and some of the acting was good in the sense of bringing the younger TOS characters to life in a realistic way....keeping to their original temperaments.... (SOME acting was BLEEGH!! )

I, for one, would like to see more references to our Enterprise series characters, since it is now the only canon series to be in both the original timeline and this new one.

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 18 2010, 8:48 pm)

Quote (Vger23 @ June 17 2010, 5:06 pm) I do not view the OPINION as "crazy" or "derranged." I DO find the fanatical negative obsession with film that some people have to be somewhat crazy, though. I find some fans' inability to "let it go" to be a bit crazy. I find the attitude of some fans that it is ?"not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses"to be crazy and delusional since essentially they are calling everyone else an aimless moron and proclaiming that they alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. It's not the OPINION ITSELF that I find crazy. Anyone can like or dislike a movie! It's a matter of personal tastes, perceptions, values, etc. For example, I dislike one of the most popular Star Trek movies ever (TVH). What I DO find crazy (and will challenge every single time) is that some people create a weird personal "alternate reality" of their own to justify their opinion and make themselves feel better about everything. So, personally....YEAH, I find that kind of behavior a bit "off." But do you also find some people fanatical obsession Loving the movie to also be some what crazy? And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off However just because myself and of course a minority of others may feel that, does not mean we think anyone who likes it is a drooling moron. An old co worker and I saw the movie together in the theatre for the first time shortly after it was released. I utterly hate this movie he on the other hand loves it and agreed with every positive thing the critics said about it. He even went out and bought it not long after it came out too. Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". What I know he is, is a guy who likes a good action flick which is what I am as well. Plus there are a couple of posters on here who like the movie and I get along with them just fine. I may disagree with them on this one topic but again I don't think they are morons. Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. I will however (and it's completly in my right and anyone elses) To say what I would have done differently with the franchise and what I feel would have been a better direction for it or even a better way to have done a reboot. That also does not automatically mean the following: That I wanted yet another TNG film or VOY DS9 or ENT. Or that I want Berman & Bragga back. Which all seems to be the assumtion of many here who get into it with us the anti movie people. That all being said I agree that anyone who does act and feel the way you describe is a bit off. I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. I am just really tired of all the asumptions around here that are directed towards anyone who did not like the movie.

I think, as has been your pattern, that you internalize and generalize too much.

Quote

And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off

Again, I do not find the OPINION "off" (which, I'm not sure I could have made any more CLEAR). What I find "off" is people who think that they have some kind of domain over what is and is not "real" Star Trek. I also find it to be the height of arrogance for someone to think that the "intelligence" of the masses is lower than their own, especially based on what they enjoy for entertainment.

Quote

Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron".

I never said that you thought that. I never said that everyone who doesn't like the movie thinks that. I said that people who DO indeed think that are my problem. How can you not get what I've written? Why do you have to have such a MASSIVE complex about this whole thing?

Quote

Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about.

Where did I say that you behaved this way? Again, why are you personalizing everything?? You asked a question, and I answered it. Your question wasn't "Do you think I'M crazy," it was a general question. So, I answered it in a general way. Where have I accused you in this thread of any of these things you are all defensive about?? I'm absolutely lost...

Quote

I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined.

This may be true, but I find the irrational behavior to be more on the side of those in the "anti" camp:

1. Claiming that the movie was only popular becuase it appeals to the stupid, drooling masses and not to the INTELLECTUAL and SUPERIOR Star Trek fan (O RLY?!

2. Telling everyone that this is not "Real Star Trek" and rambling on about what Roddenberry would have wanted, how the fans have been spat on, blah blah etc. etc. etc.

3. Taking every single person that disagrees with them and making it out to be a personal attack on your independant value system, your freedoms, and your perception of the universe (yes, this one IS talking to you).

4. Feeling that your entire universe has collapsed because one 2-hour movie you "hated" was a smash success, and therefore every Star Trek project from here out will also suck and blow and be horrible gross disgusting.

5. Having personal ill-will toward JJ Abrams or any of the members of the creative team.

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 21 2010, 9:43 am)

Quote (Invader_Wishfire @ June 18 2010, 7:05 am) Quote (Tin_Man @ June 18 2010, 6:54 am) So if you dislike or hate the Trek 09 movie, Apparently you are some how deranged? Really? Because from what I've been hearing from most of the haters, you're deranged if you do like it. Sure, some people from the hater side have said that. But as I said since there are WAY more people who like the movie, I believe the anti movie people have had a much harder time of it simply because we are so heavily outnumbered. Majority rules around these parts. I have found the pro movie side is far quicker by enlarge to label you as a geek or a purist or whatever at the slightest mention that you don't like the movie in anyway.

So really, your frustration comes from the fact that you can't Oh No and moan without people of differing opinions challenging you because most people don't agree with you?

WELCOME TO REAL LIFE, SON!!!



Seriously, this is how life works. You can't be pro-life without being called a conservative nazi idiot. You can't be pro-choice without being called a murdering Godless fool. People get labled every single day based on their actions and opinions. It is human nature, and it happens in every human culture throughout history.

I'm sorry that this upsets you, but I don't get why you have such a hard time understanding it.

"Majority" dosn't rule anything here. I can't understand what you are missing, but you're definitely missing something. If "majority ruled," then they'd have voted you off the island and SILENCED you a long time ago. You would have been banned for having an unpopular opinion. Where and when has that happened?? It hasn't!!! So what are you going on about???

You have the same opportunity to voice your opinion and challenge the opinions of others as every single member of this board has. That is A FACT. If you don't like being challenged or debated in reply to those opinions (which you MUST accept WILL happen in an environment such as this), then you are in the wrong place, chief. If you are asking to be allowed to voice your opinion WITHOUT being challenged, then who is REALLY looking to restrict freedoms??? YOU ARE!

You need to be prepared to box if you're going to step in the ring. You don't want to get your nose bloodied, then stay the hell out. It's just that simple. It's not personal.

Quote (Vger23 @ June 20 2010, 3:44 pm)

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 18 2010, 8:48 pm) Quote (Vger23 @ June 17 2010, 5:06 pm) I do not view the OPINION as "crazy" or "derranged." I DO find the fanatical negative obsession with film that some people have to be somewhat crazy, though. I find some fans' inability to "let it go" to be a bit crazy. I find the attitude of some fans that it is ?"not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses"to be crazy and delusional since essentially they are calling everyone else an aimless moron and proclaiming that they alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. It's not the OPINION ITSELF that I find crazy. Anyone can like or dislike a movie! It's a matter of personal tastes, perceptions, values, etc. For example, I dislike one of the most popular Star Trek movies ever (TVH). What I DO find crazy (and will challenge every single time) is that some people create a weird personal "alternate reality" of their own to justify their opinion and make themselves feel better about everything. So, personally....YEAH, I find that kind of behavior a bit "off." But do you also find some people fanatical obsession Loving the movie to also be some what crazy? And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off However just because myself and of course a minority of others may feel that, does not mean we think anyone who likes it is a drooling moron. An old co worker and I saw the movie together in the theatre for the first time shortly after it was released. I utterly hate this movie he on the other hand loves it and agreed with every positive thing the critics said about it. He even went out and bought it not long after it came out too. Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". What I know he is, is a guy who likes a good action flick which is what I am as well. Plus there are a couple of posters on here who like the movie and I get along with them just fine. I may disagree with them on this one topic but again I don't think they are morons. Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. I will however (and it's completly in my right and anyone elses) To say what I would have done differently with the franchise and what I feel would have been a better direction for it or even a better way to have done a reboot. That also does not automatically mean the following: That I wanted yet another TNG film or VOY DS9 or ENT. Or that I want Berman & Bragga back. Which all seems to be the assumtion of many here who get into it with us the anti movie people. That all being said I agree that anyone who does act and feel the way you describe is a bit off. I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. I am just really tired of all the asumptions around here that are directed towards anyone who did not like the movie. I think, as has been your pattern, that you internalize and generalize too much. Quote And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off Again, I do not find the OPINION "off" (which, I'm not sure I could have made any more CLEAR). What I find "off" is people who think that they have some kind of domain over what is and is not "real" Star Trek. I also find it to be the height of arrogance for someone to think that the "intelligence" of the masses is lower than their own, especially based on what they enjoy for entertainment. Quote Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". I never said that you thought that. I never said that everyone who doesn't like the movie thinks that. I said that people who DO indeed think that are my problem. How can you not get what I've written? Why do you have to have such a MASSIVE complex about this whole thing? Quote Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. Where did I say that you behaved this way? Again, why are you personalizing everything?? You asked a question, and I answered it. Your question wasn't "Do you think I'M crazy," it was a general question. So, I answered it in a general way. Where have I accused you in this thread of any of these things you are all defensive about?? I'm absolutely lost... Quote I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. This may be true, but I find the irrational behavior to be more on the side of those in the "anti" camp: 1. Claiming that the movie was only popular becuase it appeals to the stupid, drooling masses and not to the INTELLECTUAL and SUPERIOR Star Trek fan (O RLY?! 2. Telling everyone that this is not "Real Star Trek" and rambling on about what Roddenberry would have wanted, how the fans have been spat on, blah blah etc. etc. etc. 3. Taking every single person that disagrees with them and making it out to be a personal attack on your independant value system, your freedoms, and your perception of the universe (yes, this one IS talking to you). 4. Feeling that your entire universe has collapsed because one 2-hour movie you "hated" was a smash success, and therefore every Star Trek project from here out will also suck and blow and be horrible gross disgusting. 5. Having personal ill-will toward JJ Abrams or any of the members of the creative team.

To answer this and your other post that came after:

First off I think both "YOU" and "I" are guilty of generalizing about our differing opinions of those that like or hate this movie.

Regarding who I get along with that likes the movie if you want me to name names fine. The one poster that immediately comes too mind is Starbase 63; he went to see the movie thinking he was going to hate it and came out liking it. I still enjoy my interactions with him. In fact he's one of my favourite posters here.

As for debating the topic of the movie I have no problem with getting into it with anyone on here who spouts off with an opinion I disagree with.

And when I'm wrong, I will even publically admit it, in fact a few months ago you and I got into it about something, and I misread one of your posts and went off on a tangent.

In the end I was wrong and I even admitted it to you and apologized PUBLICALLY. So I feel I can both give and take the odd bloody nose as you say.

As for the movie being made for the general public and catering to the lowest common denominator: Well we will have to agree to disagree. I think the movie was crap and I felt the venues they chose to advertise in were direct evidence that they were not going for the more cerebral crowd and more for the general pop corn crowd. Again not necessarily idiots but people who generally like a good action flick over more substance.

If that makes me come off as a snob then so be it. However, I work in media as my profession, I manage a department that sells advertising so I know a little bit about where to advertise to get what demographic of people.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant but it is my day job after all so my opinion at least "in this instance for once" has some real world backing to it.

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 22 2010, 10:26 am)

Quote (Vger23 @ June 20 2010, 3:44 pm) Quote (Tin_Man @ June 18 2010, 8:48 pm) Quote (Vger23 @ June 17 2010, 5:06 pm) I do not view the OPINION as "crazy" or "derranged." I DO find the fanatical negative obsession with film that some people have to be somewhat crazy, though. I find some fans' inability to "let it go" to be a bit crazy. I find the attitude of some fans that it is ?"not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses"to be crazy and delusional since essentially they are calling everyone else an aimless moron and proclaiming that they alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. It's not the OPINION ITSELF that I find crazy. Anyone can like or dislike a movie! It's a matter of personal tastes, perceptions, values, etc. For example, I dislike one of the most popular Star Trek movies ever (TVH). What I DO find crazy (and will challenge every single time) is that some people create a weird personal "alternate reality" of their own to justify their opinion and make themselves feel better about everything. So, personally....YEAH, I find that kind of behavior a bit "off." But do you also find some people fanatical obsession Loving the movie to also be some what crazy? And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off However just because myself and of course a minority of others may feel that, does not mean we think anyone who likes it is a drooling moron. An old co worker and I saw the movie together in the theatre for the first time shortly after it was released. I utterly hate this movie he on the other hand loves it and agreed with every positive thing the critics said about it. He even went out and bought it not long after it came out too. Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". What I know he is, is a guy who likes a good action flick which is what I am as well. Plus there are a couple of posters on here who like the movie and I get along with them just fine. I may disagree with them on this one topic but again I don't think they are morons. Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. I will however (and it's completly in my right and anyone elses) To say what I would have done differently with the franchise and what I feel would have been a better direction for it or even a better way to have done a reboot. That also does not automatically mean the following: That I wanted yet another TNG film or VOY DS9 or ENT. Or that I want Berman & Bragga back. Which all seems to be the assumtion of many here who get into it with us the anti movie people. That all being said I agree that anyone who does act and feel the way you describe is a bit off. I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. I am just really tired of all the asumptions around here that are directed towards anyone who did not like the movie. I think, as has been your pattern, that you internalize and generalize too much. Quote And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off Again, I do not find the OPINION "off" (which, I'm not sure I could have made any more CLEAR). What I find "off" is people who think that they have some kind of domain over what is and is not "real" Star Trek. I also find it to be the height of arrogance for someone to think that the "intelligence" of the masses is lower than their own, especially based on what they enjoy for entertainment. Quote Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". I never said that you thought that. I never said that everyone who doesn't like the movie thinks that. I said that people who DO indeed think that are my problem. How can you not get what I've written? Why do you have to have such a MASSIVE complex about this whole thing? Quote Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. Where did I say that you behaved this way? Again, why are you personalizing everything?? You asked a question, and I answered it. Your question wasn't "Do you think I'M crazy," it was a general question. So, I answered it in a general way. Where have I accused you in this thread of any of these things you are all defensive about?? I'm absolutely lost... Quote I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. This may be true, but I find the irrational behavior to be more on the side of those in the "anti" camp: 1. Claiming that the movie was only popular becuase it appeals to the stupid, drooling masses and not to the INTELLECTUAL and SUPERIOR Star Trek fan (O RLY?! 2. Telling everyone that this is not "Real Star Trek" and rambling on about what Roddenberry would have wanted, how the fans have been spat on, blah blah etc. etc. etc. 3. Taking every single person that disagrees with them and making it out to be a personal attack on your independant value system, your freedoms, and your perception of the universe (yes, this one IS talking to you). 4. Feeling that your entire universe has collapsed because one 2-hour movie you "hated" was a smash success, and therefore every Star Trek project from here out will also suck and blow and be horrible gross disgusting. 5. Having personal ill-will toward JJ Abrams or any of the members of the creative team. To answer this and your other post that came after: First off I think both "YOU" and "I" are guilty of generalizing about our differing opinions of those that like or hate this movie. Regarding who I get along with that likes the movie if you want me to name names fine. The one poster that immediately comes too mind is Starbase 63; he went to see the movie thinking he was going to hate it and came out liking it. I still enjoy my interactions with him. In fact he's one of my favourite posters here. As for debating the topic of the movie I have no problem with getting into it with anyone on here who spouts off with an opinion I disagree with. And when I'm wrong, I will even publically admit it, in fact a few months ago you and I got into it about something, and I misread one of your posts and went off on a tangent. In the end I was wrong and I even admitted it to you and apologized PUBLICALLY. So I feel I can both give and take the odd bloody nose as you say. As for the movie being made for the general public and catering to the lowest common denominator: Well we will have to agree to disagree. I think the movie was crap and I felt the venues they chose to advertise in were direct evidence that they were not going for the more cerebral crowd and more for the general pop corn crowd. Again not necessarily idiots but people who generally like a good action flick over more substance. If that makes me come off as a snob then so be it. However, I work in media as my profession, I manage a department that sells advertising so I know a little bit about where to advertise to get what demographic of people. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but it is my day job after all so my opinion at least "in this instance for once" has some real world backing to it.

True, true. Good post.

I just think it's difficult for some people (especially with something they hold so dearly) to not take things overly personal or be overly sensitive when they find themselves in the minority.

You have to think of it this way. If you were a big Boston Red Sox baseball fan, and you went on the official Red Sox chatboard and said "David Ortiz is crap, and our manager (Terry Francona) is a complete idiot for having him in there every night!!" you are BOUND to get many MANY charged, emotional responses to that statement. Since that statement is not going to be a popular one, you're likely to get more negative things (and contrary things) hurled in your direction than normal.

It's the same thing here. Lots of people liked the new movie. It performed uncommonly well with fans, new comers, critics, etc. etc...so you're barking up a tough tree right there. Add to that the passion and dedication that many Star Trek fans have...and, well...you're inviting that kind of challenging and even personal response.

If it doesn't bother you (which it shouldn't), then it becomes no big deal. If people are over-reacting, you should just laugh about it and not get so wound up.

It's like I always said, I really am not a fan of TVH. But, do I get all fired-up when people praise it up and down as being great? NO! Of course not! I know that I am in a fairly unique position in not liking that film, and I am very comfortable with that. It's simply a matter of my own personal tastes not being aligned with the majority. And, if someone calls me out on it, I typically admit that I'm just a bit "different" in that regard.

Whatever! Who cares? Nobody's going to make me watch it (not that I'd mind, becuase I don't HATE any Star Trek movie).

It's all about attitude.

Quote (Vger23 @ June 21 2010, 2:34 pm)

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 22 2010, 10:26 am) Quote (Vger23 @ June 20 2010, 3:44 pm) Quote (Tin_Man @ June 18 2010, 8:48 pm) Quote (Vger23 @ June 17 2010, 5:06 pm) I do not view the OPINION as "crazy" or "derranged." I DO find the fanatical negative obsession with film that some people have to be somewhat crazy, though. I find some fans' inability to "let it go" to be a bit crazy. I find the attitude of some fans that it is ?"not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses"to be crazy and delusional since essentially they are calling everyone else an aimless moron and proclaiming that they alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. It's not the OPINION ITSELF that I find crazy. Anyone can like or dislike a movie! It's a matter of personal tastes, perceptions, values, etc. For example, I dislike one of the most popular Star Trek movies ever (TVH). What I DO find crazy (and will challenge every single time) is that some people create a weird personal "alternate reality" of their own to justify their opinion and make themselves feel better about everything. So, personally....YEAH, I find that kind of behavior a bit "off." But do you also find some people fanatical obsession Loving the movie to also be some what crazy? And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off However just because myself and of course a minority of others may feel that, does not mean we think anyone who likes it is a drooling moron. An old co worker and I saw the movie together in the theatre for the first time shortly after it was released. I utterly hate this movie he on the other hand loves it and agreed with every positive thing the critics said about it. He even went out and bought it not long after it came out too. Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". What I know he is, is a guy who likes a good action flick which is what I am as well. Plus there are a couple of posters on here who like the movie and I get along with them just fine. I may disagree with them on this one topic but again I don't think they are morons. Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. I will however (and it's completly in my right and anyone elses) To say what I would have done differently with the franchise and what I feel would have been a better direction for it or even a better way to have done a reboot. That also does not automatically mean the following: That I wanted yet another TNG film or VOY DS9 or ENT. Or that I want Berman & Bragga back. Which all seems to be the assumtion of many here who get into it with us the anti movie people. That all being said I agree that anyone who does act and feel the way you describe is a bit off. I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. I am just really tired of all the asumptions around here that are directed towards anyone who did not like the movie. I think, as has been your pattern, that you internalize and generalize too much. Quote And of course you are welcome to your opinion that anyone who finds that the movie is in fact (in their opinion) "not REAL Star Trek" and "it is idiot food for the drooling masses" a bit off Again, I do not find the OPINION "off" (which, I'm not sure I could have made any more CLEAR). What I find "off" is people who think that they have some kind of domain over what is and is not "real" Star Trek. I also find it to be the height of arrogance for someone to think that the "intelligence" of the masses is lower than their own, especially based on what they enjoy for entertainment. Quote Now he is a friend of mine and he happens to have almost the same eduacation I have. (same college diploma different grad certificates) ande we both work in the same media doing similar things. But I'm sorry just because he loved the movie and I hated DOES NOT MEAN that I think he is a "drooling moron". I never said that you thought that. I never said that everyone who doesn't like the movie thinks that. I said that people who DO indeed think that are my problem. How can you not get what I've written? Why do you have to have such a MASSIVE complex about this whole thing? Quote Also since I hold this opinion of hate for the film I do not go around as you say proclaiming that I alone have some kind of magical insight into what Star Trek is really all about. Where did I say that you behaved this way? Again, why are you personalizing everything?? You asked a question, and I answered it. Your question wasn't "Do you think I'M crazy," it was a general question. So, I answered it in a general way. Where have I accused you in this thread of any of these things you are all defensive about?? I'm absolutely lost... Quote I just feel that is true of people who both love and hate the movie to the extremes you outlined. This may be true, but I find the irrational behavior to be more on the side of those in the "anti" camp: 1. Claiming that the movie was only popular becuase it appeals to the stupid, drooling masses and not to the INTELLECTUAL and SUPERIOR Star Trek fan (O RLY?! 2. Telling everyone that this is not "Real Star Trek" and rambling on about what Roddenberry would have wanted, how the fans have been spat on, blah blah etc. etc. etc. 3. Taking every single person that disagrees with them and making it out to be a personal attack on your independant value system, your freedoms, and your perception of the universe (yes, this one IS talking to you). 4. Feeling that your entire universe has collapsed because one 2-hour movie you "hated" was a smash success, and therefore every Star Trek project from here out will also suck and blow and be horrible gross disgusting. 5. Having personal ill-will toward JJ Abrams or any of the members of the creative team. To answer this and your other post that came after: First off I think both "YOU" and "I" are guilty of generalizing about our differing opinions of those that like or hate this movie. Regarding who I get along with that likes the movie if you want me to name names fine. The one poster that immediately comes too mind is Starbase 63; he went to see the movie thinking he was going to hate it and came out liking it. I still enjoy my interactions with him. In fact he's one of my favourite posters here. As for debating the topic of the movie I have no problem with getting into it with anyone on here who spouts off with an opinion I disagree with. And when I'm wrong, I will even publically admit it, in fact a few months ago you and I got into it about something, and I misread one of your posts and went off on a tangent. In the end I was wrong and I even admitted it to you and apologized PUBLICALLY. So I feel I can both give and take the odd bloody nose as you say. As for the movie being made for the general public and catering to the lowest common denominator: Well we will have to agree to disagree. I think the movie was crap and I felt the venues they chose to advertise in were direct evidence that they were not going for the more cerebral crowd and more for the general pop corn crowd. Again not necessarily idiots but people who generally like a good action flick over more substance. If that makes me come off as a snob then so be it. However, I work in media as my profession, I manage a department that sells advertising so I know a little bit about where to advertise to get what demographic of people. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but it is my day job after all so my opinion at least "in this instance for once" has some real world backing to it. True, true. Good post. I just think it's difficult for some people (especially with something they hold so dearly) to not take things overly personal or be overly sensitive when they find themselves in the minority. You have to think of it this way. If you were a big Boston Red Sox baseball fan, and you went on the official Red Sox chatboard and said "David Ortiz is crap, and our manager (Terry Francona) is a complete idiot for having him in there every night!!" you are BOUND to get many MANY charged, emotional responses to that statement. Since that statement is not going to be a popular one, you're likely to get more negative things (and contrary things) hurled in your direction than normal. It's the same thing here. Lots of people liked the new movie. It performed uncommonly well with fans, new comers, critics, etc. etc...so you're barking up a tough tree right there. Add to that the passion and dedication that many Star Trek fans have...and, well...you're inviting that kind of challenging and even personal response. If it doesn't bother you (which it shouldn't), then it becomes no big deal. If people are over-reacting, you should just laugh about it and not get so wound up. It's like I always said, I really am not a fan of TVH. But, do I get all fired-up when people praise it up and down as being great? NO! Of course not! I know that I am in a fairly unique position in not liking that film, and I am very comfortable with that. It's simply a matter of my own personal tastes not being aligned with the majority. And, if someone calls me out on it, I typically admit that I'm just a bit "different" in that regard. Whatever! Who cares? Nobody's going to make me watch it (not that I'd mind, becuase I don't HATE any Star Trek movie). It's all about attitude.

Agreed


What is your take on the Enterprise series issue?

In that case I was a staunch supporter of it and had even more trouble then I have with the my position on the new movie.

I like another poster in this thread had a ton of issues supporting Enterprise when it was on. I know it was not a perfect series by any stretch and feel that it was finally giving us what we wanted "consistantly" in the 4th season then it got canned.

Now this being a Trek site people were coming out of the wood work to flame the series along with anyone who supported it. VERY few people took the fight to the streets in support of the show as they have with supporting the new movie.

I keep coming out on the loosing/minority side

To many people criticise me for saying the Trek 09 movie is bad! It is! It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. But it ISN'T Star Trek which is way I don't like it; I think fans of the Trek 09 movie got taken in big time to all the fancy bling: graphics, props and sets and so forth, that distracted them from a threadbare and pretty simple story. Believe you me, the next Star Trek movies by JJ Abrams, will be just the same. It's annoying because Star Trek is about quality; now it's heading down a road of cheap thrills and bling (fancy sets, computer graphics) and shoddy stories.

I liked the new film, I just don't like all the nitpickers

Quote (Quantumflux01 @ June 22 2010, 5:39 pm)

To many people criticise me for saying the Trek 09 movie is bad! It is! It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. But it ISN'T Star Trek which is way I don't like it; I think fans of the Trek 09 movie got taken in big time to all the fancy bling: graphics, props and sets and so forth, that distracted them from a threadbare and pretty simple story. Believe you me, the next Star Trek movies by JJ Abrams, will be just the same. It's annoying because Star Trek is about quality; now it's heading down a road of cheap thrills and bling (fancy sets, computer graphics) and shoddy stories.

And THIS is why you get beaten on:

Saying "It's not Star Trek" is the HEIGHT of self-centered, narrow-thinking arrogance.

It may not contain those elements of Star Trek that appeal to you PERSONALLY, but judging what "is" and "is NOT" Star Trek in such broad terms is extremely inflammatory and insulting to people, particularly long-time dedicated fans who felt that it was actually MORE "Star Trek" than any of the versions we've been treated to for the last 15 years.

It's also arrogant and extremely insulting as a fan of the new film to listen to people like you claim that our brains were somehow melted by the special effects and action sequences of the film, as if to imply that somehow you have a higher set of standards, tastes, and intelligence than those who disagree with you. That's a bunch of elitist, rationalizing crap. You didn't like it? That's fine! But don't make it about "what Star Trek REALLY is" and don't make it about "I'm much too intelligent and refined to enjoy this kind of low-brow entertainment." That just reeks of insecurity and narrow-mindedness.





SERIOUSLY??? And people wonder why they get jumped on when they post crap like this?? I mean, I had to read this 3 times just to make sure it wasn't a tongue-in-cheek joke!

So, Tin_Man, THERE is your answer. This person's post pretty much EMBODIES what irritates me about those who share your opinion and choose to express it in this way.

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 22 2010, 4:22 pm)

Agreed What is your take on the Enterprise series issue? In that case I was a staunch supporter of it and had even more trouble then I have with the my position on the new movie. I like another poster in this thread had a ton of issues supporting Enterprise when it was on. I know it was not a perfect series by any stretch and feel that it was finally giving us what we wanted "consistantly" in the 4th season then it got canned. Now this being a Trek site people were coming out of the wood work to flame the series along with anyone who supported it. VERY few people took the fight to the streets in support of the show as they have with supporting the new movie. I keep coming out on the loosing/minority side

I'll tell you my "Enterprise" story.


When "Enterprise" first premiered, I was totally psyched! Here was a series that matched up with everything I had been hoping for:

1. Return to the sense of adventure and pioneering
2. A time frame where space travel and technology aren't simply "taken for granted"
3. A less sterile, more human set of characters
4. Some "Trek history" shown in live-action
5. Scott Bakula as a starship captain...cool!

So, when the show premiered, I was on message boards and I defended that sucker up and down. I was so irritated listening to the shallow, nit-picky, nerdy gripes:

- There was no ship named "Enterprise" prior to the one we saw in TOS.
- The sets, technology, and uniforms all look more ADVANCED than TOS, not more retro.
- Why are the Vulcans so mean?
- The theme song sucks (God, does that one get old)
- April was the "first" captain of the Enterprise
- blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine

So, I went to battle endlessly defending the show and the premise.

THEN...

I started to realize that I didn't dig on the show very much myself. I gave it a very fair shake...but there were some things I could not get past (none of which have ANYTHING to do with the fanboy gripes listed above):

- I couldn't connect with any of the characters very well. I cared about Archer and Tripp, but really didn't care much at all about anyone else.

- Aside from a few episodes, it seemed pretty much like VOY and TNG, except not nearly as good, and certainly not as fresh.

- There was very little advantage taken of the idea of showing "historical" aspects that were established in the 23rd and 24th century shows.

- The "pioneering" and "sense of adventure" was never captured the way the show had promised, in my opinion.

- The Xindi arc was not entertaining.

So...I just kind of shut my mouth and stopped giving it a lot of my attention. I didn't bash on it, because I thought that was wrong and counter-productive. I watched it every so often (the Augments arc,the Mirror Universe episode, the final episode, etc), but I didn't really get into it on a week-to-week basis.

BUT, I always respected it as "Star Trek," I never bad-mouthed it or the fans who really enjoyed it, and I accepted that it is just one piece in a vast and diverse body of work that I enjoy greatly.

So, I have no problem with ENT. I'll probably revisit it again some day, like I am right now with DS9 (which I also "gave up on" during it's original run, but I am enjoying very much now).

Quote (Vger23 @ June 24 2010, 3:49 pm)

Quote (Quantumflux01 @ June 22 2010, 5:39 pm) To many people criticise me for saying the Trek 09 movie is bad! It is! It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. But it ISN'T Star Trek which is way I don't like it; I think fans of the Trek 09 movie got taken in big time to all the fancy bling: graphics, props and sets and so forth, that distracted them from a threadbare and pretty simple story. Believe you me, the next Star Trek movies by JJ Abrams, will be just the same. It's annoying because Star Trek is about quality; now it's heading down a road of cheap thrills and bling (fancy sets, computer graphics) and shoddy stories. And THIS is why you get beaten on: Saying "It's not Star Trek" is the HEIGHT of self-centered, narrow-thinking arrogance. It may not contain those elements of Star Trek that appeal to you PERSONALLY, but judging what "is" and "is NOT" Star Trek in such broad terms is extremely inflammatory and insulting to people, particularly long-time dedicated fans who felt that it was actually MORE "Star Trek" than any of the versions we've been treated to for the last 15 years. It's also arrogant and extremely insulting as a fan of the new film to listen to people like you claim that our brains were somehow melted by the special effects and action sequences of the film, as if to imply that somehow you have a higher set of standards, tastes, and intelligence than those who disagree with you. That's a bunch of elitist, rationalizing crap. You didn't like it? That's fine! But don't make it about "what Star Trek REALLY is" and don't make it about "I'm much too intelligent and refined to enjoy this kind of low-brow entertainment." That just reeks of insecurity and narrow-mindedness. SERIOUSLY??? And people wonder why they get jumped on when they post crap like this?? I mean, I had to read this 3 times just to make sure it wasn't a tongue-in-cheek joke! So, Tin_Man, THERE is your answer. This person's post pretty much EMBODIES what irritates me about those who share your opinion and choose to express it in this way.

Ditto on what V'Ger says here.

Oh, and as for QF's contention that ST XI wasn't ST, well, a bunch of ST veterans, including Patrick Stewart, Ronald Moore, and Bryan Fuller, said it definitely was ST.

Heck, Leonard Nimoy obviously endorsed ST XI too by his very presence.  It had Kirk, Spock, and McCoy in it, so obviously ST XI is more ST than any of the spin-offs.

Quote (ServalanFan @ June 26 2010, 10:05 am)

I liked parts of Star Trek 09 and disliked some others. However because I'm largely on the like side I get cheesed off by some of the criticism of the people who like the film not the film itself. I'm not picking on you TinMan but I find this statement by you as quite inflammatory and insulting: Quote Spock and Kirk never showed interest in Uhura in the original star trek series that I can recall. ?Spock making out with Uhura was totally out of character but I guess it's okay since it's a parallel universe huh? ?Maybe next they'll be making X-rated star trek porn and it'll be okay since that'll take place in a parallel universe too. Alright I'm a little less insulted by this piece because it more laughable but its still inflammatory. On the other hand I think people can be afraid to voice legitimate criticisms of the film in case they are jumped on. Anyway I think Star Trek 09 caused a lot of fun times and interest on the movie thread no matter which side you were on.

Fair enough, I was just giving my professional opinion in that regard.

Others in my industry may disagree with me but from the people I have spoken to who have decades more experience in this biz than I do agree with my assessment. BTW those same people also liked the movie where I did not.

Quote (Vger23 @ June 23 2010, 4:49 pm)

Quote (Quantumflux01 @ June 22 2010, 5:39 pm) To many people criticise me for saying the Trek 09 movie is bad! It is! It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. But it ISN'T Star Trek which is way I don't like it; I think fans of the Trek 09 movie got taken in big time to all the fancy bling: graphics, props and sets and so forth, that distracted them from a threadbare and pretty simple story. Believe you me, the next Star Trek movies by JJ Abrams, will be just the same. It's annoying because Star Trek is about quality; now it's heading down a road of cheap thrills and bling (fancy sets, computer graphics) and shoddy stories. And THIS is why you get beaten on: Saying "It's not Star Trek" is the HEIGHT of self-centered, narrow-thinking arrogance. It may not contain those elements of Star Trek that appeal to you PERSONALLY, but judging what "is" and "is NOT" Star Trek in such broad terms is extremely inflammatory and insulting to people, particularly long-time dedicated fans who felt that it was actually MORE "Star Trek" than any of the versions we've been treated to for the last 15 years. It's also arrogant and extremely insulting as a fan of the new film to listen to people like you claim that our brains were somehow melted by the special effects and action sequences of the film, as if to imply that somehow you have a higher set of standards, tastes, and intelligence than those who disagree with you. That's a bunch of elitist, rationalizing crap. You didn't like it? That's fine! But don't make it about "what Star Trek REALLY is" and don't make it about "I'm much too intelligent and refined to enjoy this kind of low-brow entertainment." That just reeks of insecurity and narrow-mindedness. SERIOUSLY??? And people wonder why they get jumped on when they post crap like this?? I mean, I had to read this 3 times just to make sure it wasn't a tongue-in-cheek joke! So, Tin_Man, THERE is your answer. This person's post pretty much EMBODIES what irritates me about those who share your opinion and choose to express it in this way.

I can understand that.

But there is a poster or 2 that have really fanned the flames here from the pro movie side by repeatedly (Crusading) saying that the Prime Timeline is for geeks and was boring.

That hasn't helped things around here at all either.

Essentially saying that the same people who like the movie and the previous trek are boring geeks themselves.
So the intelligence insult door swings both ways here.


The not so subtle sub text on this issue here is:

Anyone who likes the movie is a gi-normous moron

And

Anyone who hate's the movie is a sexless nerd who needs to get a life.


That I believe is the driving force behind many of the people on either side of the issue.

Unfortunately it is never going to go away, it'll just die down into the BG and flair up on occasion because nobody is going to openly except those definitions to describe themselves in the context of being what kind of Trek fan they are.

And very few seem able to find some common ground. Although I feel I have done so with you

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 28 2010, 9:38 am)

Quote (Vger23 @ June 23 2010, 4:49 pm) Quote (Quantumflux01 @ June 22 2010, 5:39 pm) To many people criticise me for saying the Trek 09 movie is bad! It is! It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. But it ISN'T Star Trek which is way I don't like it; I think fans of the Trek 09 movie got taken in big time to all the fancy bling: graphics, props and sets and so forth, that distracted them from a threadbare and pretty simple story. Believe you me, the next Star Trek movies by JJ Abrams, will be just the same. It's annoying because Star Trek is about quality; now it's heading down a road of cheap thrills and bling (fancy sets, computer graphics) and shoddy stories. And THIS is why you get beaten on: Saying "It's not Star Trek" is the HEIGHT of self-centered, narrow-thinking arrogance. It may not contain those elements of Star Trek that appeal to you PERSONALLY, but judging what "is" and "is NOT" Star Trek in such broad terms is extremely inflammatory and insulting to people, particularly long-time dedicated fans who felt that it was actually MORE "Star Trek" than any of the versions we've been treated to for the last 15 years. It's also arrogant and extremely insulting as a fan of the new film to listen to people like you claim that our brains were somehow melted by the special effects and action sequences of the film, as if to imply that somehow you have a higher set of standards, tastes, and intelligence than those who disagree with you. That's a bunch of elitist, rationalizing crap. You didn't like it? That's fine! But don't make it about "what Star Trek REALLY is" and don't make it about "I'm much too intelligent and refined to enjoy this kind of low-brow entertainment." That just reeks of insecurity and narrow-mindedness. SERIOUSLY??? And people wonder why they get jumped on when they post crap like this?? I mean, I had to read this 3 times just to make sure it wasn't a tongue-in-cheek joke! So, Tin_Man, THERE is your answer. This person's post pretty much EMBODIES what irritates me about those who share your opinion and choose to express it in this way. I can understand that. But there is a poster or 2 that have really fanned the flames here from the pro movie side by repeatedly (Crusading) saying that the Prime Timeline is for geeks and was boring. That hasn't helped things around here at all either. Essentially saying that the same people who like the movie and the previous trek are boring geeks themselves. So the intelligence insult door swings both ways here. The not so subtle sub text on this issue here is: Anyone who likes the movie is a gi-normous moron And Anyone who hate's the movie is a sexless nerd who needs to get a life. That I believe is the driving force behind many of the people on either side of the issue. Unfortunately it is never going to go away, it'll just die down into the BG and flair up on occasion because nobody is going to openly except those definitions to describe themselves in the context of being what kind of Trek fan they are. And very few seem able to find some common ground. Although I feel I have done so with you

Agreed.

Did you see my response to your question regarding ENT as well?

Quote (Vger23 @ June 27 2010, 1:50 pm)

Quote (Tin_Man @ June 28 2010, 9:38 am) Quote (Vger23 @ June 23 2010, 4:49 pm) Quote (Quantumflux01 @ June 22 2010, 5:39 pm) To many people criticise me for saying the Trek 09 movie is bad! It is! It's a good movie, don't get me wrong. But it ISN'T Star Trek which is way I don't like it; I think fans of the Trek 09 movie got taken in big time to all the fancy bling: graphics, props and sets and so forth, that distracted them from a threadbare and pretty simple story. Believe you me, the next Star Trek movies by JJ Abrams, will be just the same. It's annoying because Star Trek is about quality; now it's heading down a road of cheap thrills and bling (fancy sets, computer graphics) and shoddy stories. And THIS is why you get beaten on: Saying "It's not Star Trek" is the HEIGHT of self-centered, narrow-thinking arrogance. It may not contain those elements of Star Trek that appeal to you PERSONALLY, but judging what "is" and "is NOT" Star Trek in such broad terms is extremely inflammatory and insulting to people, particularly long-time dedicated fans who felt that it was actually MORE "Star Trek" than any of the versions we've been treated to for the last 15 years. It's also arrogant and extremely insulting as a fan of the new film to listen to people like you claim that our brains were somehow melted by the special effects and action sequences of the film, as if to imply that somehow you have a higher set of standards, tastes, and intelligence than those who disagree with you. That's a bunch of elitist, rationalizing crap. You didn't like it? That's fine! But don't make it about "what Star Trek REALLY is" and don't make it about "I'm much too intelligent and refined to enjoy this kind of low-brow entertainment." That just reeks of insecurity and narrow-mindedness. SERIOUSLY??? And people wonder why they get jumped on when they post crap like this?? I mean, I had to read this 3 times just to make sure it wasn't a tongue-in-cheek joke! So, Tin_Man, THERE is your answer. This person's post pretty much EMBODIES what irritates me about those who share your opinion and choose to express it in this way. I can understand that. But there is a poster or 2 that have really fanned the flames here from the pro movie side by repeatedly (Crusading) saying that the Prime Timeline is for geeks and was boring. That hasn't helped things around here at all either. Essentially saying that the same people who like the movie and the previous trek are boring geeks themselves. So the intelligence insult door swings both ways here. The not so subtle sub text on this issue here is: Anyone who likes the movie is a gi-normous moron And Anyone who hate's the movie is a sexless nerd who needs to get a life. That I believe is the driving force behind many of the people on either side of the issue. Unfortunately it is never going to go away, it'll just die down into the BG and flair up on occasion because nobody is going to openly except those definitions to describe themselves in the context of being what kind of Trek fan they are. And very few seem able to find some common ground. Although I feel I have done so with you Agreed. Did you see my response to your question regarding ENT as well?

I did, yes I can see that. I liked the series overall but felt the Xindi arc was interesting but COMPLETLY uncalled for.


The times that they did actually do the odd episode that was meant to give us the history of a well known alien race I think they usually did those very well. Unfortunately those episodes were too few and far between.

Season 4 was finally getting it right even according to the critics and that's when it ended. Of course it also ended on the worse series final in Trek history.

Where the Voyager ending ended to soon, we didn't get anything on what happened once they got back.

The Enterprise ending gave too much info and terrible info at that. Trip dyeing the Romulan war not happening as it was supposed too PLUS it all being a Riker Holodeck wet dream etc.

On the Ent bashing note, I felt that the bashers nailed everything not just the weak episodes but even the really awesome ones. Oh well now I find myself on the anti side of a trek issue for once


Conclusion on the pro verses anti Trek issues.

Forget it Vger23... It's Star Trek dot com town



I hope you got the movie reference there :co