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all religious trekkies need to watch a TNG episode

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Jun. 20 2010, 5:08 am

Quote (rocketscientist @ June 19 2010, 6:00 pm)
Also, it's interesting to hear that Ron Moore, who has referred to himself as "a recovering Catholic" (whatever that means, I assume at the least that it means he's not going to church anymore) and most of the other writers disagreed with GR and Braga that man would ditch religion by the 24th century. The incorporation of religion in Moore's BSG is probably another one of those elements that he put in there to distance BSG from ST. There were a lot of those GR "rules" that Moore disagreed with, rules that were put in place during TNG that he felt conflicted with TOS, including the GR's "these people have no flaws" edict. Actually, the GR perfect people edict probably includes the atheism of the charactes, since GR regarded religious faith as a flaw, instead of a source of hope, strength, and an expression of humility.

Well, sheesh, executive producers Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore certainly didn't shy away from faith and religion in DS9. And they also seemed to go out of their way to bring Trek back to its TOS roots, often avoiding and outright ignoring many of Roddenberry's TNG edicts.

In fact, Behr has stated publicly that he hated writing for TNG, and Moore states on the DS9 DVDs that he also had much more fun (i.e., much more freedom) on that series than TNG. Moore went on to express his belief that DS9 evolved to become the finest Trek of them all.

Seems to me BSG was simply a natural progression for Moore. And associating post-TNG Trek with atheism and extremely secular ideals is, well, a bit faulty.

rocketscientist

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Report this Jun. 20 2010, 12:27 pm

Quote (TheDriver @ June 20 2010, 5:08 am)
Quote (rocketscientist @ June 19 2010, 6:00 pm)
Also, it's interesting to hear that Ron Moore, who has referred to himself as "a recovering Catholic" (whatever that means, I assume at the least that it means he's not going to church anymore) and most of the other writers disagreed with GR and Braga that man would ditch religion by the 24th century. The incorporation of religion in Moore's BSG is probably another one of those elements that he put in there to distance BSG from ST. There were a lot of those GR "rules" that Moore disagreed with, rules that were put in place during TNG that he felt conflicted with TOS, including the GR's "these people have no flaws" edict. Actually, the GR perfect people edict probably includes the atheism of the charactes, since GR regarded religious faith as a flaw, instead of a source of hope, strength, and an expression of humility.

Well, sheesh, executive producers Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore certainly didn't shy away from faith and religion in DS9. And they also seemed to go out of their way to bring Trek back to its TOS roots, often avoiding and outright ignoring many of Roddenberry's TNG edicts.

In fact, Behr has stated publicly that he hated writing for TNG, and Moore states on the DS9 DVDs that he also had much more fun (i.e., much more freedom) on that series than TNG. Moore went on to express his belief that DS9 evolved to become the finest Trek of them all.

Seems to me BSG was simply a natural progression for Moore. And associating post-TNG Trek with atheism and extremely secular ideals is, well, a bit faulty.

Oh, I totally agree with you Driver.  I was referring mainly to Moore's comments regarding his time working on TNG.  

Yes, he and Beher had more freedom to explore religion and faith in DS9 through other cultures, mainly the Bajorans, but they still generally observed the rules of TNG wrt the human SF characters.  We didn't see any of them practicing religion, did we?  

And, yes, I've read Moore crediting DS9 as the antecedent for BSG.  He said he enjoyed working with on DS9 with Beher on that show.  

I can't say DS9 is the finest ST, since the original is my favorite with those classic characters, but I will say its the best of the modern ST shows and had the finest writing of all the series imo.

TheDriver

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Report this Jun. 21 2010, 8:33 am

Quote (rocketscientist @ June 20 2010, 3:27 pm)
Yes, he and Beher had more freedom to explore religion and faith in DS9 through other cultures, mainly the Bajorans, but they still generally observed the rules of TNG wrt the human SF characters. We didn't see any of them practicing religion, did we?

I can't say DS9 is the finest ST, since the original is my favorite with those classic characters, but I will say its the best of the modern ST shows and had the finest writing of all the series imo.

True, none of the human characters practiced religion. However, Sisko eventually did turn himself over to Bajoran teachings and finally accepted his role as the Emissary. Also, Bashir, O'Brien, and Quark, in their love for Jadzia and respect for Worf's religious views, became part of the Rotarran crew that found a way to secure a place for DS9's former science officer in Sto-Vo-Kor. (It seems strange to me that when you mention "religion," most Trek fans think "Bajoran" when the Klingons were just as overtly religious.)

Anyway, I'm with you on TOS. It's hard for me to say which series - DS9 or TOS - is my true favorite. Although I believe the overall best Trek series (or perhaps best written, produced, acted, etc.) would probably have to go to DS9.

rocketscientist

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Report this Jun. 21 2010, 9:00 am

Quote (TheDriver @ June 21 2010, 8:33 am)
Quote (rocketscientist @ June 20 2010, 3:27 pm)
Yes, he and Beher had more freedom to explore religion and faith in DS9 through other cultures, mainly the Bajorans, but they still generally observed the rules of TNG wrt the human SF characters. We didn't see any of them practicing religion, did we?

I can't say DS9 is the finest ST, since the original is my favorite with those classic characters, but I will say its the best of the modern ST shows and had the finest writing of all the series imo.

True, none of the human characters practiced religion. However, Sisko eventually did turn himself over to Bajoran teachings and finally accepted his role as the Emissary. Also, Bashir, O'Brien, and Quark, in their love for Jadzia and respect for Worf's religious views, became part of the Rotarran crew that found a way to secure a place for DS9's former science officer in Sto-Vo-Kor. (It seems strange to me that when you mention "religion," most Trek fans think "Bajoran" when the Klingons were just as overtly religious.)

Yeah, well, clearly you have the non-religious characters respecting other faiths, Klingon and Bajoran, something people like Ali here don't.  

When it had to tackle religious themes, the modern ST shows had to generally do it by proxy, with aliens like the Bajorans or the Klingons, since all the humans (with the possible exception of VOY's Chakotay) were atheists.  In many ways, characters like Kira and Worf were more human than Picard and the other human characters of the modern series.

Trek_Fan1978

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Report this Jul. 26 2010, 4:30 pm

You want the fans of Star Trek that do believe in the supernatural (like me), to watch an episode about the Prime Directive and take away the meaning that religions are primitive and backwards? I've got an episode that you should watch. "Sacred Ground" in Season 3 of Voyager.
In it, Janeway tries to find a scientific explanation to an accident that happens to Kes. She goes on a three day long ritual, and examines every step with her scientific method. As she puts it, "If we scratch deep enough, we'd find a scientific basis for most religious doctrines." After she completes the ritual, she finds out that all the data the Doctor collected from her physiology is useless. Kes is not healed. Everything she went through was meaningless. Turns out, one of the monks asks her the crux of the episode. "If you can explain everything, what's left to believe in?" Science did not find the answer. The monk goes on to say, "Even when her science fails right before her eyes, she still has full confidence in it. Now, there is a leap of faith." At the end of the episode, Janeway is a changed person. She learns that science might be able to explain a lot of things, but faith goes beyond any understanding.

SLagonia

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Report this Jul. 31 2010, 9:40 pm

Are you suggesting that this episode will somehow make me abandon my faith?

For the record, it's a great episode, but the anti-religion rant (and that's what it was, dispite Trek never before or after being nearly as blatant) was just out of left field and was so obviously a case of Picard being an author avatar for someone with a chip on his shoulder.

"If it doesn't work, paint it." -Unofficial Motto of the Starfleet Border Patrol -------- "Speak for the unheard, secure the vulnerable, bring light to the dark, fight for those who cannot" -Real motto of The Starfleet Border Patrol

SLagonia

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Report this Jul. 31 2010, 9:42 pm

Quote: Trek_Fan1978 @ Jul. 26 2010, 4:30 pm

You want the fans of Star Trek that do believe in the supernatural (like me), to watch an episode about the Prime Directive and take away the meaning that religions are primitive and backwards? I've got an episode that you should watch. "Sacred Ground" in Season 3 of Voyager. In it, Janeway tries to find a scientific explanation to an accident that happens to Kes. She goes on a three day long ritual, and examines every step with her scientific method. As she puts it, "If we scratch deep enough, we'd find a scientific basis for most religious doctrines." After she completes the ritual, she finds out that all the data the Doctor collected from her physiology is useless. Kes is not healed. Everything she went through was meaningless. Turns out, one of the monks asks her the crux of the episode. "If you can explain everything, what's left to believe in?" Science did not find the answer. The monk goes on to say, "Even when her science fails right before her eyes, she still has full confidence in it. Now, there is a leap of faith." At the end of the episode, Janeway is a changed person. She learns that science might be able to explain a lot of things, but faith goes beyond any understanding.


Actually, I found that to be incredibly insulting to religion, portraying it as something one must abandon logic to behold and something that we cling to in desperation. It was [i]supposed[/i] to be sensitive to religion, but it was writen by two athiests.

"If it doesn't work, paint it." -Unofficial Motto of the Starfleet Border Patrol -------- "Speak for the unheard, secure the vulnerable, bring light to the dark, fight for those who cannot" -Real motto of The Starfleet Border Patrol

Kesfan74656

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Report this Aug. 15 2010, 3:10 pm

''Sacred Ground'' is a favorite episode of mine, well of course.It involves the maternal, not just the Captainly bond Kathryn feels for Kes(I LOVE that moment when Kes comes to, opens her eyes, and smiles)but, I honor and respect the central theme presented beyond that, particulalrly as Kathryn is a pure-science person. I am a Southerner-yep, folks, this be the Bible Belt-and was raised in a religious environment-beyond that, I won't go further, but it is important to me, to respect and honor Faith, and I find it a very nice thing, when ST has delved into such an arena-as it did way back in ''Bread and Circuses''....Yes, we all have the right to believe, or not believe as we choose...but, I've run across sentiments, at least it's seemed that way, that religion is some kind of malady to be done away with. As i've posted at another site I am a mem at, there have been many GOOD things that faith has inspired, to use the term this way, beyond any claims, sometimes valid, at what 'religion' has done to create violence...homeless shelters, hospitals, disaster relief so many times...it is a core part of the lives of billions across this Earth, and even if one does not share it, it is important to respect another for it, and not 'run down' such a person who does. BTW, I remember that speech by Picard, seeing it. It's a great one, delivered with respect, and open-mindedness by the captain. And let's not forget Chakotay, who Seven reminded us belives in-he, a man of the 24th Century-in 'The Great Spriit'.....


''If I were captain, i'd open every crack in the universe, and peek inside, just like Captain Janeway does''-Kes, ''The Cloud''

1Data

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Report this Aug. 15 2010, 5:36 pm

Gene Roddenberry himself was a humanist and agnostic. He saw religion as the cause for wars and suffering. However, he did not dismiss faith completely but in fact respected what other people believed in and tried to integrate that into the Star Trek Universe. He used many examples of differences in beliefs, politics, cultural traditions and so on as the basis of many episodes. Take for example the episode mentioned by Trek_Fan1978. Kathryn Janeway learns through a struggle within her own beliefs as opposed to another's that while what she believes in is solid in her mind, there are many more extraordinary things than just what she believes in. Faith is a big theme in Star Trek, whether or not we see it. It's leaps of faith that take the captains through many obsticles as well as the members of the crew. They do what they believe is best for the crew, for the ship, for their captain what have you.


And yes there have been episodes that deeply adress religion. It doesn't mean to say that it is desuading anyone from believing what they believe in. The point is, the Star Trek universe makes us think deeply on many concerning issues including the belief in God and other such things. I myself am a firm believer in God. And while certain episodes have had me contemplate deeply on religion, it has never pulled me away from it. Just because certain episodes say one thing doesn't mean they are absolute or that people should think so hard on it that they change what they believe in because of it. And saying that those who believe in God or whatever deity they do should watch one episode and think on it because it could prove what you believe is right....just isn't right.


That isn't the intention of Star Trek.


The intention of Star Trek is to explore the unknown. To look at different cultures, beliefs, foundations etc. To examine them with an open mind and respect them. It may not be a certain view of the future. But it is one that we should strive for. Where we are driven by the curiosity of the unknown and are willing to discover it while respecting it and understanding that while we might not always agree with some things, they will always exist and be precious to others.


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2takesfrakes

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Report this Aug. 16 2010, 6:17 am

STAR TREK is a great franchise and fun to talk about.
But I don't need Rodenberry, or a fictional Picard
telling me how to live or what to believe. I'm quite
capable of making my own decisions, without their help.
Thank you, very much ...

Vger23

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Report this Aug. 16 2010, 8:11 am

Quote: 2takesfrakes @ Aug. 16 2010, 6:17 am

STAR TREK is a great franchise and fun to talk about. But I don't need Rodenberry, or a fictional Picard telling me how to live or what to believe. I'm quite capable of making my own decisions, without their help. Thank you, very much ...


Quite right, Mr. Frakes!

It never ceases to amaze me when I read all of the obtuse, ignorant, short-sited comments out here from people claiming to be Star Trek fans, when clearly they have missed the KEY message of Star Trek.

Star Trek has always been about many things. Adventure, exploration, friendship, good vs evil, overcoming flaws, etc...but the most consistent and pure message Star Trek has EVER delivered is that diversity is a GOOD thing. Diversity of thought, appearance, and belief is something that Star Trek not only celebrated...but it taught us as the best path to our future.

Star Trek NEVER told us what to believe. EVER. Star Trek simply showed us how good our future could be if we simply learned to accept that people ARE different and to respect those differences.

I find the original post to be insulting and in direct conflict wiht that basic philosophy.

I AM KEE-ROCK!!

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