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Klingon origin.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 2:55 am

Quote (marshall8472 @ June 12 2010, 11:59 pm)
We can get an idea of what Klingons were like millions of years ago from the next generation episode "genesis".

Worf had supposedly de-evolved into what Klingons used to be like. ¿He became much larger (200 kilograms or 440 pounds), heavily armored with an exoskeleton, and able to break through a door with his bare hands.

If Klingon were genetically engineered, this could be used as evidence that they have lost a lot of their genetic advantages over the course of millions of years probably through natural selection based on a lot of the enhancements being considered vestigial in nature.

There are other species that are more formidable than Klingons though, like the Herogin.

Herogin, maybe. but we really don't know since there suits are practically a part of who they are. We don't know what they are like without them.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 6:09 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 12 2010, 5:17 pm)

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We can get an idea of what Klingons were like millions of years ago from the next generation episode "genesis".

Worf had supposedly de-evolved into what Klingons used to be like.  He became much larger (200 kilograms or 440 pounds), heavily armored with an exoskeleton, and able to break through a door with his bare hands.

If Klingon were genetically engineered, this could be used as evidence that they have lost a lot of their genetic advantages over the course of millions of years probably through natural selection based on a lot of the enhancements being considered vestigial in nature.


What he devolved into could also have simply been a animal that those who designed klingons took DNA from. Or a throw back from whatever they did take DNA from to create Klingons.


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Yeah, we don't have all those redundancies because we built tools to fight, spears first and knives then onto other stuff.

Since we don't know Klingon ancient history, who knows how long it took for them to make tools to fight, remember they like to find hand to hand. If you continue to fight animals by hand and teeth, and not building tools, that body is going to evolve with massive redundancies.


That is actually quite a interestingly argument as it involves the fact that they evolved dual traits, one animalistic and one of a higher level.

Either idea has merit and could be supported by certain facts we see during the series, i just personally prefer the genetically engineered one because it could be the start of a interesting story involving the return of the beings that created them (those the original klingons did not kill) a time travel episode or a combo of both. It would certainly make a interesting book or film plot if the federation got involved to help the Klingons out with their former gods/creators.

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 6:18 am

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 13 2010, 6:09 am)
That is the worst answer ever considering how many vulnerable parts we have on our body that do not have redundancies and are much more exposed.

Your inability accept it does not make it a bad answer.

I have seen attacks by dogs, wolfs ,bears and while boar that all centered in the kidny region of their targets.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 7:34 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 13 2010, 6:18 am)
Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 13 2010, 6:09 am)
That is the worst answer ever considering how many vulnerable parts we have on our body that do not have redundancies and are much more exposed.

Your inability accept it does not make it a bad answer.

I have seen attacks by dogs, wolfs ,bears and while boar that all centered in the kidny region of their targets.

I do not have a inability to accept it i have a inibility to believe your absurd bullcrap.

Wolves are mostly pack animals but they do hunt solo and either way they tend to pick on the weak or sick. They also attack the nose or the rump of the animal and death is usually because of blood loss. Popular myth says they hamstring prey but that is not true.

Bears tend to go for a neck bite a bit like big cats but unlike big cats they cannot jump well so they use their size to maul and crush their opponents to the ground and then go for the neck bite.

Wild boars gore with theire horns and their has never been any evidence that they focus on the kidney area.


Making such silly claims makes you look like a silly argumentative child tbh.

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 7:47 am

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 13 2010, 7:34 am)
I do not have a inability to accept it i have a inibility to believe your absurd bullcrap.

My Bullcrap...I think you need to re-examin your entire argument.

Quote

Bears tend to go for a neck bite a bit like big cats but unlike big cats they cannot jump well so they use their size to maul and crush their opponents to the ground and then go for the neck bite.


Same as above.

And I happen to know a person that lost a kidney in a bear attack.

Claw damage.
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Wild boars gore with theire horns and their has never been any evidence that they focus on the kidney area.
.


Never said there was evidence of them "focus on the kidney areas" but I have heard of persons that were injured in the ares of the kidneys.

Not paying attention to whats been written and trying to argue againest it only makes you look foolish and ignorant.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 8:18 am

Quote
And how does any of that disregard what I said???

Are you claiming its imposable for a Wolf to attack a differnt part of its target??


You are trying to turn the argument into something its not, You cannot say that just because they can or could attack the kidney area that it is the reason we have two kidneys, that is a total fallacy. Only a idiot or a petulant child would try to do so.

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Never said there was evidence of them "focus on the kidney areas" but I have heard of persons that were injured in the areas of the kidneys.

Not paying attention to whats been written and trying to argue againest it only makes you look foolish and ignorant.


You are full of crap and diverting the discussion.

You claimed that we have 2 kidneys because of animals attacking:
Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 13 2010, 7:47 am)
Many predators have the ability to sence week spots in their prey, vital organs and such, so that they can target those areas for attack/kill.

Well maybe we developed 2 kidneys so that if one were damaged and functions stopped due to an attack, but we mannaged to get away, we could continue to live/hunt depended on just 1.


Considering the animals you named focus on areas of the body nowhere near the kidneys your entire stupid idea and lies you use to support it like "i know ppl who lost kidneys to a nasty guinea pig" :laugh: ¿crap are pitiful.

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 8:31 am

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 13 2010, 8:18 am)
My argument?, if you mean my idea and that i think it would make a good and interesting story than both are perfectly reasonable considering canon dialog ect.

No your idea is fine, but your arguing with any one that takes issue with your explanation of evolved redundancies.

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Yea yea, i say you are not only a liar but a fool as your theory hold no water.


Now your insulting me??

Its your theories that are lacking in imagination.

But its evident that you wont see no one elses points but your own.

I wont stoop to your level and respond with an insult.


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You claimed that we have 2 kidneys because of animals attacking:


Check your reading and comprehension skills buddy....because you just proved I made no such claim.

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Considering the animals you named focus on areas of the body nowhere near the kidneys your entire stupid idea and lies you use to support it are pitiful.


Considering your inability to read and comprehend what your reading, and your lack of knowlidge on the topic, its no wonder you cant follow a post.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 8:50 am

Quote
I didnt say it was "the reason" I said it was a "possible reason" and so far you havent brought up anything that makes it an impossible reason.

So my claim was that we "MAY" have developed a 2nd kidney in result of animal attack...not that we DID.


It is called logic use it.

Predators never or only by accident attack the kidney area, however they regularly attack the neck area and other parts but your theory claims that the rare times they do hit the Kidney area may have caused us to grow 2 kidneys?....

Stupid theory considering the facts.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 3:05 pm

No one has mentioned this one yet, but it answers the question of Klingon origin, also Humans, Romulans, and many other species. We were all seeded from this species and then evolved separately on each planet.

The Chase

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 3:23 pm

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 13 2010, 8:50 am)
It is called logic use it.

Predators never or only by accident attack the kidney area, however they regularly attack the neck area and other parts but your theory claims that the rare times they do hit the Kidney area may have caused us to grow 2 kidneys?....

Stupid theory considering the facts.

I happen to know that your use of the word "NEVER" is an over statement.

Furthermore as I stated it was a possible explanation not "the" explanation.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 13 2010, 4:20 pm

Quote (Kdbtrekkin @ June 13 2010, 3:05 pm)
No one has mentioned this one yet, but it answers the question of Klingon origin, also Humans, Romulans, and many other species. We were all seeded from this species and then evolved separately on each planet.

The Chase

I was going to but the fact that the race in the chase said they seeded primal worlds "primordial oceans" i figured it made no differance to the evolution theory or the genetically enginerred theory because genetic engineerng needs a base DNA or animal to work from in the first place. So theres no reason the code would not be part of Klingon DNA if the initial samples were taken from a seeded world.

Vorta were initially some sort of nut/berry eating tree dwellers if i recall.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Jun. 15 2010, 2:55 am

They were basically, from how it sounds chimpanzees of their world. Like how humans supposedly come from chimps or some other similar primate. They just got a head start on their normal evolutionary track. And of course modified to be diplomats and overseers as it sounds, otherwise they are who they were, they still eat nuts and berries preferably.

Klingons could be there, but it just sounds throughout the series that they are a normal product of their planets evolution.

I know someone mentioned how Worf De-Evolved, well that just explains they evolved beyond the need for certain attributes, just like humanity, we now have thinner skulls and probably more nimble fingers, and we aren't as strong as we used to be, just like the de-evolved version of Worf was strong, modern Klingons aren't as strong as that or so protected, but still some attributes are(extra organs, strength(still darn strong), and what passes for a Klingon brain(sorry all Klingons).

Quantumflux01

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Report this Jun. 15 2010, 5:57 pm

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 11 2010, 3:22 pm)
.



Do you think Klingons may have originally been genetically engineered soldiers like the Jem'Hadar or that it would make a interesting addition to the Trekverse?.




1. Considering the Episodes inolving Klingon anatomy and their redundant systems as well as extra organs.

2. Then i watching the Klingon marriage ceremony that included the "Klingon creation myth" and it screamed at me:


Quote
"With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'

And the heart said... 'I am alone.'

And the gods knew that they had erred. So they went back to their forge and brought forth another heart.

But the second heart beat stronger than the first, and the first was jealous of its power. Fortunately, the second heart was tempered by wisdom.

'If we join together, no force can stop us.'

And when the two hearts began to beat together, they filled the heavens with a terrible sound. For the first time, the gods knew fear. They tried to flee, but it was too late. The Klingon hearts destroyed the gods who created them and turned the heavens to ashes. To this very day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts."



It could be reasonably argued that they were initially male only soldiers bred like the Jem'Hadar some how either convinced their "gods/creators" to create females and give them the ability to breed normally or the "gods/creators" chose to give them the ability for another reason. And in doing so they gave their creations the ability for self propagation and eventual independance and rebelion.


3. Also a not strong but reasonable argument could be made that supports this regarding how the Klingons reacted to genetically engineered "Human Augment" DNA in the series Enterprise (Affliction/Divergance).

Even the Episode where Worf devolves or they find the code in the DNA leading them to find the original race could easily be explained away because all forms genetic engineering and modification requires some base DNA to modify in the first place......The Vorta were originally nut gobbling monkeys i believe?.


I know that it has never been truely suggested during the Movies or the Series but it would be a interesting path to take the Klingon storyline down in a time travel movie or episode in the future in the new timeline.

Wow off your rocker... Evolution mate, evolution. Besides if the Klingons were artifically breed/created, how did they revolt against their master/creators? Anyway such a question is irrelevant, the answer to all this lies in the Klingon myths/religion.

Kor_Dahar_Master it's just a story that's all, it's a clever interpretation, but I much prefer the whole Kahless vs the Klingon gods thing.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 16 2010, 3:47 am

Quote:


Quote
Besides if the Klingons were artifically breed/created, how did they revolt against their master/creators?


You mean like we saw the Jem'hadar do in DS9 on more than one occasion?....and they were addicted to the white as well as programmed to see the founders as gods and react in certain ways.


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But I much prefer the whole Kahless vs the Klingon gods thing.


Kortar was the first Klingon and it was he who killed all the gods (well apart from Fek'lhr who in Klingon myth got stuck with looking after the dishonoured dead in Gre'thor), Kortar got stuck with ferrying them to Gre'thor. This myth was based many hundreds of years if not thousands before the time of "Kahless the Unforgettable".

Kahless the Unforgettable did not show up until long afterwards that roughly coincided with the 9th century on earth. He was the founder of the Klingon Empire and the first Emperor and was known as the one who brought the Klingon ppl out of chaos and gave them the laws of honor.

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Kor_Dahar_Master it's just a story that's all, it's a clever interpretation


I am not saying it is true or trying to force the idea on anybody (although im willing to enjoy a debate about the details) i just think it would make a really interesting plot developer if it was adopted and filled out and could be the base for many story lines.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Jun. 16 2010, 2:07 pm

I like how they made Klingons kill there own Gods, it's like they were human(in the sense they believed in Gods) and then grew up, you don't need Gods and a Klingon prides himself on his own abilities, having a God around would just muck that up, I don't need rules he would say, I make my own.  I love how they killed there own God's :laugh:

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