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Klingon origin.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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POSTS: 129

Report this Jun. 11 2010, 10:22 am

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Do you think Klingons may have originally been genetically engineered soldiers like the Jem'Hadar or that it would make a interesting addition to the Trekverse?.




1. Considering the Episodes inolving Klingon anatomy and their redundant systems as well as extra organs.

2. Then i watching the Klingon marriage ceremony that included the "Klingon creation myth" and it screamed at me:


Quote
"With fire and steel did the gods forge the Klingon heart. So fiercely did it beat, so loud was the sound, that the gods cried out, 'On this day we have brought forth the strongest heart in all the heavens. None can stand before it without trembling at its strength.' But then the Klingon heart weakened, its steady rhythm faltered and the gods said, 'Why do you weaken so? We have made you the strongest in all of creation.'

And the heart said... 'I am alone.'

And the gods knew that they had erred. So they went back to their forge and brought forth another heart.

But the second heart beat stronger than the first, and the first was jealous of its power. Fortunately, the second heart was tempered by wisdom.

'If we join together, no force can stop us.'

And when the two hearts began to beat together, they filled the heavens with a terrible sound. For the first time, the gods knew fear. They tried to flee, but it was too late. The Klingon hearts destroyed the gods who created them and turned the heavens to ashes. To this very day, no one can oppose the beating of two Klingon hearts."



It could be reasonably argued that they were initially male only soldiers bred like the Jem'Hadar some how either convinced their "gods/creators" to create females and give them the ability to breed normally or the "gods/creators" chose to give them the ability for another reason. And in doing so they gave their creations the ability for self propagation and eventual independance and rebelion.


3. Also a not strong but reasonable argument could be made that supports this regarding how the Klingons reacted to genetically engineered "Human Augment" DNA in the series Enterprise (Affliction/Divergance).

Even the Episode where Worf devolves or they find the code in the DNA leading them to find the original race could easily be explained away because all forms genetic engineering and modification requires some base DNA to modify in the first place......The Vorta were originally nut gobbling monkeys i believe?.


I know that it has never been truely suggested during the Movies or the Series but it would be a interesting path to take the Klingon storyline down in a time travel movie or episode in the future in the new timeline.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Jun. 11 2010, 3:27 pm

Nah, I'd have to say there a species that evolved on Kronos, like Humans on Earth. Nice concept though. All the redundancies can probably be explained by the centuries of how Klingons live, as hunters, they need those extra things to just stay alive against the even bigger predators then themselves. and since they do hunt for a living, that would seem logical over a long period of time.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 11 2010, 4:18 pm

Quote (Kdbtrekkin @ June 11 2010, 3:27 pm)
Nah, I'd have to say there a species that evolved on Kronos, like Humans on Earth. Nice concept though. All the redundancies can probably be explained by the centuries of how Klingons live, as hunters, they need those extra things to just stay alive against the even bigger predators then themselves. and since they do hunt for a living, that would seem logical over a long period of time.

I do not buy the evolution bit tbh, humans have had to struggle against animals that were considerably bigger, stronger and nastier than us as we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

I am not saying its not possible for them to have developed like that but i doubt that many of the space faring species in the Trek galaxy had NO predators while they evolved so that means more should have developed those traits if not all including us.

Davros_

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Report this Jun. 11 2010, 10:16 pm

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 10 2010, 5:18 pm)
...we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

No, instead we developed our own defenses which we take for granted. In ENT, Phlox once made a comment about how quickly human skin heals. Also, IIRC, human immune systems are above average in comparison to other humanoid alien species in the Trekverse.

FuelSurveyUnderlord

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Report this Jun. 11 2010, 11:26 pm

You made that shit up.

Davros_

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Report this Jun. 11 2010, 11:53 pm

Would you mind using the quote function to specify who it is you're talking to?

If you're referring to my statement above, here's the relevant quote from Phlox:

Quote
PHLOX: Human skin is a resilient organ. These wounds should heal nicely.


As for the second part, I'm not about to search the transcripts of five series because you seemed to have missed the point entirely; while Klingons have their own, unique evolutionary advantages, so does any given species. The real question is the usefulness of these features outside of their native environment.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 3:36 am

Quote (Davros_ @ June 11 2010, 11:53 pm)
Would you mind using the quote function to specify who it is you're talking to?

If you're referring to my statement above, here's the relevant quote from Phlox:

Quote
PHLOX: Human skin is a resilient organ. These wounds should heal nicely.


As for the second part, I'm not about to search the transcripts of five series because you seemed to have missed the point entirely; while Klingons have their own, unique evolutionary advantages, so does any given species. The real question is the usefulness of these features outside of their native environment.

Sorry but i do not buy that, human skin takes weeks to heal and sometimes longer depending on the size and shape of the wound. Phlox may have been commenting on the fact that it would eventually heal but in no way can you interpret his comment as making human skin particularly special compared to other species skin.

I have also seen no evidence that the human immune system in any way special compared to other species in the trekverse and i do not see why it should be special in regards to how we evolved.

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 4:44 am

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 11 2010, 4:18 pm)
I do not buy the evolution bit tbh, humans have had to struggle against animals that were considerably bigger, stronger and nastier than us as we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

Thats not necessarily true.

We developed 2 kidneys.....and technically thats a "redundancy" since we only need 1 to survive.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 6:26 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 12 2010, 4:44 am)
Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 11 2010, 4:18 pm)
I do not buy the evolution bit tbh, humans have had to struggle against animals that were considerably bigger, stronger and nastier than us as we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

Thats not necessarily true.

We developed 2 kidneys.....and technically thats a "redundancy" since we only need 1 to survive.

Having a extra Kidney is hardly something that developed so we could fight of stronger predators though is it?.

Even the two lungs we have are adapted to our enviroment so much that if we lose one we can live but are unable to be as physically active as we were with 2 lungs so that is hardly a redundancy. And lungs are arguably the dual organs that would support the evolution idea if you could do as well with one as you cpould with 2.

However that brings up another issue because if these redundancies were in place because of the days we were fighting wooly mamoths or whatever you can hardly say that we had the medical know how to remove damaged organs.

Plus we already know how nature adapts weaker creatures like we were to be able to defeat larger stronger creatures... we got the opposable thumb, we learn to use tools and intelect to outsmart the gits. Evolution did not HULK us out it made us smarter and gave us the ability to club the big buggers over the head or stab the sods.

31st_Century_Temporal_Age
nt

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 9:36 am

What about the human appendix?

Kor_Dahar_Master

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 9:49 am

Quote (31st_Century_Temporal_Agent @ June 12 2010, 9:36 am)
What about the human appendix?

Yea how would we have survived attacke by sabre tooth tigers, wooly mamoths and god knows what else without it.......... :question:

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 2:34 pm

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 12 2010, 6:26 am)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 12 2010, 4:44 am)
Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 11 2010, 4:18 pm)
I do not buy the evolution bit tbh, humans have had to struggle against animals that were considerably bigger, stronger and nastier than us as we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

Thats not necessarily true.

We developed 2 kidneys.....and technically thats a "redundancy" since we only need 1 to survive.

Having a extra Kidney is hardly something that developed so we could fight of stronger predators though is it?.

How knows??

I can see how an extra kidny could help out in a fight with big predators.
Quote

Plus we already know how nature adapts weaker creatures like we were to be able to defeat larger stronger creatures... we got the opposable thumb, we learn to use tools and intelect to outsmart the gits. Evolution did not HULK us out it made us smarter and gave us the ability to club the big buggers over the head or stab the sods.


Thats how it worked on Earth.

Cant know how it would work on an other world.

Kor_Dahar_Master

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POSTS: 129

Report this Jun. 12 2010, 5:06 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 12 2010, 2:34 pm)
Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 12 2010, 6:26 am)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ June 12 2010, 4:44 am)
Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 11 2010, 4:18 pm)
I do not buy the evolution bit tbh, humans have had to struggle against animals that were considerably bigger, stronger and nastier than us as we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

Thats not necessarily true.

We developed 2 kidneys.....and technically thats a "redundancy" since we only need 1 to survive.

Having a extra Kidney is hardly something that developed so we could fight of stronger predators though is it?.

How knows??

I can see how an extra kidny could help out in a fight with big predators.
Quote

Plus we already know how nature adapts weaker creatures like we were to be able to defeat larger stronger creatures... we got the opposable thumb, we learn to use tools and intelect to outsmart the gits. Evolution did not HULK us out it made us smarter and gave us the ability to club the big buggers over the head or stab the sods.


Thats how it worked on Earth.

Cant know how it would work on an other world.

1. We did not develop the same redundancies Klingons are said to have.

2. I cannot see how a extra kidney would have been part of the evolutionary process in regards to fighting large nasty beasties but if you can enlighten me.

3. Removal of a dead or badly damaged organ if it is part of a pair is almost essential for humans to survive such a injury. It is very rare that a lung of kidney that is so badly damaged that it no longer functions is left in the body.

4. Evolution is evolution, it worked on the Klingons cos they have oposable thumbs and used tools ect just like we did. Now if their planet hand heavier gravity and less oxygen then they would likely develop larger lungs and be proportionatly stronger than humans because that is how things like that evolve.

stovokor2000

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Report this Jun. 12 2010, 5:17 pm

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 12 2010, 5:06 pm)
1. We did not develop the same redundancies Klingons are said to have.

Which proves absolutely nothing.

Quote

3. Removal of a dead or badly damaged organ if it is part of a pair is almost essential for humans to survive such a injury.


Removal...almost essential, Hardly.

Granted many time it is but thats not always the case.

Its very likely that a person could survive with 1 damaged kindny still in the body for many years.

Hell I'm going on 5 years right now.

Quote

4. Evolution is evolution,


And different spices evolve differently in different environments.

Kdbtrekkin

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POSTS: 3648

Report this Jun. 12 2010, 10:29 pm

Quote (Kor_Dahar_Master @ June 11 2010, 4:18 pm)
Quote (Kdbtrekkin @ June 11 2010, 3:27 pm)
Nah, I'd have to say there a species that evolved on Kronos, like Humans on Earth. Nice concept though. All the redundancies can probably be explained by the centuries of how Klingons live, as hunters, they need those extra things to just stay alive against the even bigger predators then themselves. and since they do hunt for a living, that would seem logical over a long period of time.

I do not buy the evolution bit tbh, humans have had to struggle against animals that were considerably bigger, stronger and nastier than us as we evolved but we never developed those redundancies.

I am not saying its not possible for them to have developed like that but i doubt that many of the space faring species in the Trek galaxy had NO predators while they evolved so that means more should have developed those traits if not all including us.

Yeah, we don't have all those redundancies because we built tools to fight, spears first and knives then onto other stuff.

Since we don't know Klingon ancient history, who knows how long it took for them to make tools to fight, remember they like to find hand to hand. If you continue to fight animals by hand and teeth, and not building tools, that body is going to evolve with massive redundancies.

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