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"Fury"

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 19 2010, 1:07 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 18 2010, 9:51 am)
So, defending the character destruction and coming up with the most morbid and unrealistic theories to defend the episode and those who made it is called "debating" while contradicting the many obvious flaws in the episode is called "wrestling with demons". ? :laugh:

[/quote]
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ¿ It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

As I wrote in a previous reply, I do find the whole "Alzheimers theory" morbid and unrealistic since there are no evidence anywhere that a person from the other part of the galaxy can suffer from something called Alzheimers.

And don't call it "facts". There is nothing, not even in the beloved "canon" which supports the theory.

Besides that, if the creature in "Fury" had such powers that she could destroy this or that and time-travel as easily as an ordinary 21th century citizen travels to work with car or bus, then that powerful creature could probably cure herself from an Earth disease from Earths "dark ages" too.

By the way, I haven't seen any Kes fans accept that theory "with open mind". As a matter of fact, there aren't that many Kes fans left on this forum, most of them left a long time ago due to the way they were treated by a "certain group of people".

Not to mention that those who have come up with and/or support theories which "explains" the events in "Fury" are in most cases the same people who many times have expressed their dislike and /or hatred for the character and also showed malice over how the character was dumped.

And there is no way to make me accept the character destruction we saw in "Fury". No way!

teya1020

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 19 2010, 1:17 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 19 2010, 1:07 pm)
As I wrote in a previous reply, I do find the whole "Alzheimers theory" morbid and unrealistic since there are no evidence anywhere that a person from the other part of the galaxy can suffer from something called Alzheimers.

No more unrealistic than other humanoid species suffering from things like cancer or various flu bugs. As a matter of fact, from a biological standpoint, it makes perfect sense that humanoids of different species would share similar physiological weaknesses.


And no one's saying it's Alzheimers as we know it in humans, it's an Alzheimers' like disease.

Quote
As a matter of fact, there aren't that many Kes fans left on this forum, most of them left a long time ago due to the way they were treated by a "certain group of people".


Would you like some cheese with that whine?

Quote
Not to mention that those who have come up with and/or support theories which "explains" the events in "Fury" are in most cases the same people who many times have expressed their dislike and /or hatred for the character and also showed malice over how the character was dumped.



You know, the more you play the innocent victim, the more I dislike the character.

The only malice I've seen over how the character was dumped is the trashing of another actress by Kes fans to make their own favorite look better.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 19 2010, 2:28 pm

Then don't accept it but don't come in here telling others they're wrong & such theories aren't supported due to you're own wrestling with with personal demons. ?Just because you refuse something doesn't entitle others to follow behind you. ?Everyone else here is mature and capible enough to discuss old age and death without your approval and will continue to do so dispite your objections.

"Elogium" & "Before & After" both contain verbal mention of Ocampains becoming senile upon entering the MorEloguim. ?BTW: TNG "Skitzoid Man" & Voy. "Resistance" have proven Alzhimers/senility/dementia still exist within the galaxy. DS9 has an ep. that  shows Lwxananna Troi is loosing control of her mental abilities due to her elder age. So yes, it has been shown before.  There is no proof or statement claiming becoming an energy being extends life. ?For the 100thx, "Coldfire" states the Ocampian life span is extended due to "technology created by Susperia". ?If you're going to use actual facts, then use the correct context & content of the actual statement. ? ?Omitting such facts makes your statements nothing but half truths.

There are 3 pages worth of replies from posters, many admitted Kes fans.
Once again, a Kes fans isn't limited to what you accept or allow them to be. ?Nobody but nobody has ever agreed with you on the sentiment either.


.

StarPixie_

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 305

Report this Apr. 19 2010, 4:02 pm

I think Fury was good. I was happy to see Jennifer Lein again even if she was the bad guy at first.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 19 2010, 4:30 pm

Quote (StarPixie_ @ April 19 2010, 4:02 pm)
I think Fury was good. I was happy to see Jennifer Lein again even if she was the bad guy at first.

Thank you, Starpixie for showing there is diversity among Kes fans. ¿:D

Your comment is much appeciated.

StarPixie_

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 305

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 12:17 am

your welcome

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 1:56 am

Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ¿ It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 8:25 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:56 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ? It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

the basic, basic view of alzheimer disease is that the sufferer has their nearer-term memories destroyed first while maintaining some longer-term memories until even those are destroyed. however, even those can be warped by the sufferer. they will also have mood swings typically of the violent kind. the end result is that the sufferer is rendered into a complete vegetative state until death by some other cause.

without going into details, i watched one of my grandmothers deteriorate too. it seems like nowadays we all know someone who has suffered from the disease.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 9:19 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:56 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ? It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

On page one of this post I give a breakdown of "Fury" and signs to look for suggesting Kes is in MorElogium and suffering from a type of Ocampian Alzhimers.
Memory Alpha also says Kes' action in "Fury" are due to the fact that she can't remember.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 1:46 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ April 20 2010, 8:25 am)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:56 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ? It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

the basic, basic view of alzheimer disease is that the sufferer has their nearer-term memories destroyed first while maintaining some longer-term memories until even those are destroyed. however, even those can be warped by the sufferer. they will also have mood swings typically of the violent kind. the end result is that the sufferer is rendered into a complete vegetative state until death by some other cause.

without going into details, i watched one of my grandmothers deteriorate too. it seems like nowadays we all know someone who has suffered from the disease.

No disrespect to you or what your grandmother has gone trew but I wasnt asking about the basics of the illness.

I was asking for the basics behind the idea that Kes suffered from it.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 1:48 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 20 2010, 9:19 am)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:56 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ? It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

On page one of this post I give a breakdown of "Fury" and signs to look for suggesting Kes is in MorElogium and suffering from a type of Ocampian Alzhimers.
Memory Alpha also says Kes' action in "Fury" are due to the fact that she can't remember.

So its your opinion thast she was suffering some kind of mental breakdown due to her age???

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 3:04 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:46 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ April 20 2010, 8:25 am)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:56 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ? It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

the basic, basic view of alzheimer disease is that the sufferer has their nearer-term memories destroyed first while maintaining some longer-term memories until even those are destroyed. however, even those can be warped by the sufferer. they will also have mood swings typically of the violent kind. the end result is that the sufferer is rendered into a complete vegetative state until death by some other cause.

without going into details, i watched one of my grandmothers deteriorate too. it seems like nowadays we all know someone who has suffered from the disease.

No disrespect to you or what your grandmother has gone trew but I wasnt asking about the basics of the illness.

I was asking for the basics behind the idea that Kes suffered from it.

oh ok. i misinterpreted the question. my apologies. then, yeah, go read what exodus said on the 1st page. he lays it out pretty nicely.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 3:06 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ April 20 2010, 3:04 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:46 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ April 20 2010, 8:25 am)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 20 2010, 1:56 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 19 2010, 8:51 am)
Yep, because basing a conclusion from actual factual evidence isn't the same as dilusions made up in ones head and passing it up as fact. ?Other Kes fans here have seen how the facts line up and accepted with an open mind that Kes is suffering from Alzhimers. ?I have provided enough facts to support it as well as counter all your arguments against.
So far, this debate is in my favor.
It also suggests your opinion of those fore & against Kes, is way off the mark too and as usual has little to nothing to do with debating the subject. ? It's just a bait & switch tactic cover up poor debating skills and lack of factual evidence.

Alzhimers???

I must have missed those debates.

Can you give me the basics as to why you feel thats the case.

the basic, basic view of alzheimer disease is that the sufferer has their nearer-term memories destroyed first while maintaining some longer-term memories until even those are destroyed. however, even those can be warped by the sufferer. they will also have mood swings typically of the violent kind. the end result is that the sufferer is rendered into a complete vegetative state until death by some other cause.

without going into details, i watched one of my grandmothers deteriorate too. it seems like nowadays we all know someone who has suffered from the disease.

No disrespect to you or what your grandmother has gone trew but I wasnt asking about the basics of the illness.

I was asking for the basics behind the idea that Kes suffered from it.

oh ok. i misinterpreted the question. my apologies. then, yeah, go read what exodus said on the 1st page. he lays it out pretty nicely.

No apologies needed......maybe I wasnt clear enough.

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 3:26 pm

Quote (teya1020 @ April 18 2010, 2:17 pm)
You know, the more you play the innocent victim, the more I dislike the character.

The only malice I've seen over how the character was dumped is the trashing of another actress by Kes fans to make their own favorite look better.

Oh, come on! I thought you were better than that.

There was a poster I used to argue with who came up with the most insulting comments I've ever seen about Kes and the actress Jennifer Lien. That poster was a fan of B'Elanna Torres. But that didn't make me hate Torres, on the contrary, it made me like the character even more.

As for malice, I remember the first time I wrote a comment on a forum on which I expressed my wish that Kes would be brought back. I was immediately attacked by some Seven fans who really did show their malice over that Kes had to leave to make room for Seven. That may have affected my opinion about Seven, really stupid, I know that but that's the way it was back then. However, in the long run I realized that it was wrong to take out the frustration on the character and the actress.

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 20 2010, 3:40 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 18 2010, 3:28 pm)
Then don't accept it but don't come in here telling others they're wrong & such theories aren't supported due to you're own wrestling with with personal demons. ?Just because you refuse something doesn't entitle others to follow behind you. ?Everyone else here is mature and capible enough to discuss old age and death without your approval and will continue to do so dispite your objections.

"Elogium" & "Before & After" both contain verbal mention of Ocampains becoming senile upon entering the MorEloguim. ?BTW: TNG "Skitzoid Man" & Voy. "Resistance" have proven Alzhimers/senility/dementia still exist within the galaxy. DS9 has an ep. that ¿shows Lwxananna Troi is loosing control of her mental abilities due to her elder age. So yes, it has been shown before. ¿There is no proof or statement claiming becoming an energy being extends life. ?For the 100thx, "Coldfire" states the Ocampian life span is extended due to "technology created by Susperia". ?If you're going to use actual facts, then use the correct context & content of the actual statement. ? ?Omitting such facts makes your statements nothing but half truths.

There are 3 pages worth of replies from posters, many admitted Kes fans.
Once again, a Kes fans isn't limited to what you accept or allow them to be. ?Nobody but nobody has ever agreed with you on the sentiment either.


.

Oh, I really wonder who's battling with demons here. As I see it, you spend a lot of time on commenting on a character that you don't even like. I have at least a reason for my actions when I try to defend the character, contradict the stupid and unnecessary character destruction and trying to find a positive solution for the character too.

What I wouldn't do is to spend a lot of time on commenting on a character I dislike or try to find "reasons" for the dismissal of that character.

As for the morilogium, even if an energy being could age (which I seriously doubt), Kes was still too young to enter the morilogium. The senility we saw in "Resistance" was the result of Caylem's mental health being affected by tragedies in his life, not some sort of Alzheimers. As for energy beings, there is no evidence that energy beings could age either.

OK, "Cold Fire" steted that the Ocampa lifespan could be prolonged due to technology created by Suspiria. But there is no evidence that this technology or something similar couldn't be used by others as well, including The Doctor or maybe Q.

Reading through those pages confirmed what I've known before, that a minority of the Kes fans could find  the episode likeable or acceptable only because Jennifer Lien was in it. So far I haven't seen a Kes fan who have stated that he/she liked the obvious character destruction in the episode.

The comment that "nobody but nobody have ever agreed with you on the sentiment either" only show how little you know.

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