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"Fury"

> id="QUOTE">while i don't have anything personally against lynx, whenever he posts in a thread that deals with kes "darth vader's theme" always starts playing in my mind.

Lynx677

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Report this Apr. 10 2010, 3:11 am

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)> id="QUOTE">Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (teya1020 @ April 08 2010, 6:03 pm)

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote


Ah, I like that. Darth Vader is a great character!  :D

teya1020

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Report this Apr. 10 2010, 2:15 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 10 2010, 3:11 am)
The development of Ocampa mental abilities remains ambiguous. The Doctor speculates that Kes's transformation might be the result of exposure to Species 8472's telepathic influence, but this is not confirmed. There is a similarity between the powers Tanis exhibits in "Cold Fire" and those Kes has in "The Gift." One might speculate that the Ocampa are all headed for the same type of transformation as Kes if and when their mental abilities evolve far enough.

"remains ambiguous" "one might speculate"


In other words, it's not canon. You can believe it, you can make it part of your own fanon, but it's not canon.

Quote
The energy-being stadium might be the highest stadium of development for the Ocampa.


Key word... "might"


In other words, it's not canon.

Lynx677

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Report this Apr. 11 2010, 3:45 am

Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 3:15 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 10 2010, 3:11 am)
The development of Ocampa mental abilities remains ambiguous. The Doctor speculates that Kes's transformation might be the result of exposure to Species 8472's telepathic influence, but this is not confirmed. There is a similarity between the powers Tanis exhibits in "Cold Fire" and those Kes has in "The Gift." One might speculate that the Ocampa are all headed for the same type of transformation as Kes if and when their mental abilities evolve far enough.

"remains ambiguous" "one might speculate"


In other words, it's not canon. You can believe it, you can make it part of your own fanon, but it's not canon.

Quote
The energy-being stadium might be the highest stadium of development for the Ocampa.


Key word... "might"


In other words, it's not canon.

Still, the assumptions made in the texts I quoted are actually built on the sacred "canon" and as I see them, logical and believable. At least compared to the wild theories about Alzheimers and the futile attempts to "explain" the crazy behavior which the creature we saw in "Fury" did show up, in order to defend those who came up with the episode and the morbid episode itself.

The sacred "canon" is not confirming any of the wild theories either since it is filled with flaws and contradictions, thus making it impossible to quote as some sort of reliable source.

Because you don't want me to believe that the events in "Investigations" occurred before the events in "Lifesigns", do you? Or that the events in "Maneuvers" took place between the events in "Caretaker" and "Parallax". According to the stardates, which are "canon", they do so.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 1:05 pm

Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 5:03 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)
Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


Quote
According to "canon", the morologium takes place the last month of an Ocampa's life, when the Ocampa has reached the age of 9 years. In 2376, Kes was only 5 and a half. Therefore she shouldn't be in the morologium state.



Again please provide evidence of this. IIRC, it was never stated clearly in the show.

Kes did state in the show that the eldest Ocampia only lived until 9 years old. ?Which means not all Ocampia live a full 9 years.

Kes was still old in "Before & After".
Which starts 3 years after "YOH".
Kes still would have been around 6.

"Coldfire" explains that the level of reality Kes finds is called "Exosha" and is the equal to ther Astral Plane for Ocampians. ?Tanis tells her about it, he tells he's been there.
If Tanis is still of flesh & bone, one can conclude you can't remain energy forever because it's not there natural state. ?Ocampians need to eat, even beings of energy require something to refuel them. Tanis still ages as he said, therefore so will Kes.  Even those that study psychic abilities will support this.

Events within Voyager itself after Jeri Taylor left has made many things within "Pathway's" non-canon. ?This has been covered several times on several different sites Lynx is a member of.

Every thing Lynx says about Kes can argued and proven false by watching every ep. that focuses on Kes on mentions the Ocampia. ¿Lynx doesn't know Kes or the Ocampia at all, only the false image of her he's created in his mind.

Lynx677

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 1:36 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 5:03 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)> id="QUOTE">Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 11 2010, 2:05 pm)

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


:eyesroll:

Kes stated that the oldest Ocampa lived until 9 years old before she met Tanis who told her that their lifespan could be prolonged.

"Before And After" took place in an alternate future. There is no evidence that she would have been old at that point in her real future, only speculation.

Tanis had been to the place called Exosia but not as a permanent energy being, only with the help of Suspiria.  However, as we could see, Tanis was still flesh and blood despite his age, he hadn't reached that permanent level yet.

I know that some of the things in "Pathways" were screwed up later on by stupidity or deliberate but, as Taylor still was one of the founding members of the show, most of what is in the book must be regarded as "canon" (if that really means anything considering the many flaws and contradictions we do find in their "canon").

As for my theories, I think they are as accurate and true as the theories which are made up to justify the destruction of the character. What really surprises me is the amount of time and effort some people put down in order to have the character destroyed and to justify that destruction. As a fan of the character, I at least have a reason for the time and effort I put down in trying to save the character from that deliberate and unnecessary destruction.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 2:14 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 11 2010, 2:05 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 5:03 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)> id="QUOTE">Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 12 2010, 1:36 pm)

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


:eyesroll:

Kes stated that the oldest Ocampa lived until 9 years old before she met Tanis who told her that their lifespan could be prolonged.

"Before And After" took place in an alternate future. There is no evidence that she would have been old at that point in her real future, only speculation.

Tanis had been to the place called Exosia but not as a permanent energy being, only with the help of Suspiria. ?However, as we could see, Tanis was still flesh and blood despite his age, he hadn't reached that permanent level yet.

I know that some of the things in "Pathways" were screwed up later on by stupidity or deliberate but, as Taylor still was one of the founding members of the show, most of what is in the book must be regarded as "canon" (if that really means anything considering the many flaws and contradictions we do find in their "canon").

As for my theories, I think they are as accurate and true as the theories which are made up to justify the destruction of the character. What really surprises me is the amount of time and effort some people put down in order to have the character destroyed and to justify that destruction. As a fan of the character, I at least have a reason for the time and effort I put down in trying to save the character from that deliberate and unnecessary destruction.
Once again nothing here is supported by any facts we've seen on the show. ?So as usual, I'll dismiss this as fank wank and nothing more.

Nothing I said is false.
Every single thing is supported by actual spoken word as written on the show & can be researched & supported by anyone willing to rewatch Kes' episodes. ?"Before & After" is an alternate future for Kes but the general facts stated about the Ocampia hold true & were discussed in both timelines.

Tanis' said his life span was increased by technology created by Susperia. ¿There is no proof or even implied that reaching Exosha was a permanate thing.

Please refrain from telling others they spent too much time focusing on a character that yourself have been fanatically obsessing over for nearly 15 years.  I suggest you get your own house inorder before you continue to take personal swipes at others over your  obsession.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 2:35 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 11 2010, 3:45 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 3:15 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 10 2010, 3:11 am)
The development of Ocampa mental abilities remains ambiguous. The Doctor speculates that Kes's transformation might be the result of exposure to Species 8472's telepathic influence, but this is not confirmed. There is a similarity between the powers Tanis exhibits in "Cold Fire" and those Kes has in "The Gift." One might speculate that the Ocampa are all headed for the same type of transformation as Kes if and when their mental abilities evolve far enough.

"remains ambiguous" "one might speculate"


In other words, it's not canon. You can believe it, you can make it part of your own fanon, but it's not canon.

Quote
The energy-being stadium might be the highest stadium of development for the Ocampa.


Key word... "might"


In other words, it's not canon.

Still, the assumptions made in the texts I quoted are actually built on the sacred "canon" and as I see them, logical and believable. At least compared to the wild theories about Alzheimers and the futile attempts to "explain" the crazy behavior which the creature we saw in "Fury" did show up, in order to defend those who came up with the episode and the morbid episode itself.

The sacred "canon" is not confirming any of the wild theories either since it is filled with flaws and contradictions, thus making it impossible to quote as some sort of reliable source.

Because you don't want me to believe that the events in "Investigations" occurred before the events in "Lifesigns", do you? Or that the events in "Maneuvers" took place between the events in "Caretaker" and "Parallax". According to the stardates, which are "canon", they do so.

As your own statement says: As you see them.

Lynx677

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 3:47 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 12 2010, 1:36 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 11 2010, 2:05 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 5:03 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)> id="QUOTE">Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 11 2010, 3:14 pm)

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


:eyesroll:

Kes stated that the oldest Ocampa lived until 9 years old before she met Tanis who told her that their lifespan could be prolonged.

"Before And After" took place in an alternate future. There is no evidence that she would have been old at that point in her real future, only speculation.

Tanis had been to the place called Exosia but not as a permanent energy being, only with the help of Suspiria. ?However, as we could see, Tanis was still flesh and blood despite his age, he hadn't reached that permanent level yet.

I know that some of the things in "Pathways" were screwed up later on by stupidity or deliberate but, as Taylor still was one of the founding members of the show, most of what is in the book must be regarded as "canon" (if that really means anything considering the many flaws and contradictions we do find in their "canon").

As for my theories, I think they are as accurate and true as the theories which are made up to justify the destruction of the character. What really surprises me is the amount of time and effort some people put down in order to have the character destroyed and to justify that destruction. As a fan of the character, I at least have a reason for the time and effort I put down in trying to save the character from that deliberate and unnecessary destruction.
Once again nothing here is supported by any facts we've seen on the show. ?So as usual, I'll dismiss this as fank wank and nothing more.

Nothing I said is false.
Every single thing is supported by actual spoken word as written on the show & can be researched & supported by anyone willing to rewatch Kes' episodes. ?"Before & After" is an alternate future for Kes but the general facts stated about the Ocampia hold true & were discussed in both timelines.

Tanis' said his life span was increased by technology created by Susperia. ?There is no proof or even implied that reaching Exosha was a permanate thing.

Please refrain from telling others they spent too much time focusing on a character that yourself have been fanatically obsessing over for nearly 15 years. ¿I suggest you get your own house inorder before you continue to take personal swipes at others over your ¿obsession.
And there is nothing which supports any theory about Kes being predestined to become evil or any theories about Alzheimers (which may not exist on the Ocampa homeworld). I dismiss such theories as hate-wank or at least futile attempts to defend an episode full of flaws and contradictions.

Tanis stated that his lifespan was increased by technology created by Suspiria. He also stated that Kes's lifespan could be prolonged in the same way.

As for my house, I do have that in order. I'm well aware of my "fanatical obsession". What does surprise me is the amount of time some other posters are spending when it comes to throw dirt on the character and defend the destruction of the character. As a dissapointed fan of the character, I at least have a reason for what I'm doing.

BashirBonesBeverly

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 4:23 pm

Lynx, you were banned for a reason.  Why do you return to a place where you are not wanted?

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 4:25 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 11 2010, 3:14 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 12 2010, 1:36 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 11 2010, 2:05 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (teya1020 @ April 09 2010, 5:03 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)> id="QUOTE">Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ April 12 2010, 3:47 pm)

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


:eyesroll:

Kes stated that the oldest Ocampa lived until 9 years old before she met Tanis who told her that their lifespan could be prolonged.

"Before And After" took place in an alternate future. There is no evidence that she would have been old at that point in her real future, only speculation.

Tanis had been to the place called Exosia but not as a permanent energy being, only with the help of Suspiria. ?However, as we could see, Tanis was still flesh and blood despite his age, he hadn't reached that permanent level yet.

I know that some of the things in "Pathways" were screwed up later on by stupidity or deliberate but, as Taylor still was one of the founding members of the show, most of what is in the book must be regarded as "canon" (if that really means anything considering the many flaws and contradictions we do find in their "canon").

As for my theories, I think they are as accurate and true as the theories which are made up to justify the destruction of the character. What really surprises me is the amount of time and effort some people put down in order to have the character destroyed and to justify that destruction. As a fan of the character, I at least have a reason for the time and effort I put down in trying to save the character from that deliberate and unnecessary destruction.
Once again nothing here is supported by any facts we've seen on the show. ?So as usual, I'll dismiss this as fank wank and nothing more.

Nothing I said is false.
Every single thing is supported by actual spoken word as written on the show & can be researched & supported by anyone willing to rewatch Kes' episodes. ?"Before & After" is an alternate future for Kes but the general facts stated about the Ocampia hold true & were discussed in both timelines.

Tanis' said his life span was increased by technology created by Susperia. ?There is no proof or even implied that reaching Exosha was a permanate thing.

Please refrain from telling others they spent too much time focusing on a character that yourself have been fanatically obsessing over for nearly 15 years. ?I suggest you get your own house inorder before you continue to take personal swipes at others over your ?obsession.
And there is nothing which supports any theory about Kes being predestined to become evil or any theories about Alzheimers (which may not exist on the Ocampa homeworld). I dismiss such theories as hate-wank or at least futile attempts to defend an episode full of flaws and contradictions.

Tanis stated that his lifespan was increased by technology created by Suspiria. He also stated that Kes's lifespan could be prolonged in the same way.

As for my house, I do have that in order. I'm well aware of my "fanatical obsession". What does surprise me is the amount of time some other posters are spending when it comes to throw dirt on the character and defend the destruction of the character. As a dissapointed fan of the character, I at least have a reason for what I'm doing.
Yep, you dismiss TPTB constantly as evil and ?only out to destroy Kes and her fans but you sure didn't hesitate to use "Pathways" and misreprestations of the script to support your case when it called for it, did you? ¿

That's right Lynx, folks will give opinions & speak about Kes, Jen Lien and everything inbetween whether you appprove of it or not. ?That's life and the purpose of every message board. ?If we have to continuely listen to you whine, then you'll have to endure others as well and our theories, opinions and facts. ?That's everyones reason for posting here and everywhere else.

teya1020

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Report this Apr. 12 2010, 4:35 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 12 2010, 1:36 pm)
What really surprises me is the amount of time and effort some people put down in order to have the character destroyed and to justify that destruction.

*sigh*


You've included my wish that we'd seen Kes live out a normal Ocampan lifespan during her time on Voyager as "character destruction," too.


It is not.


What I would have loved to see with Kes is an exploration of the universal fact that we all die eventually.


This does not mean that I've not experienced loss and death. It does not mean that I'm an evil, insensitive person. It does not mean that I didn't love my late sweetie with all my heart. All of which have been suggested by you and/or your buddies at one time or another.


It would really help your arguments if you'd stop assigned motives to people. You are not Ocampan, Lynx. You cannot read minds.

Lynx677

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Report this Apr. 13 2010, 5:25 pm

Quote (BashirBonesBeverly @ April 11 2010, 5:23 pm)
Lynx, you were banned for a reason. ¿Why do you return to a place where you are not wanted?

Banned? I was never banned, at least not for some longer period, a day or so or whatever it was when the mods decided to clean up the mess. The mods themselves can confirm that. I've deliberately stayed out of this place the recent time because I was tired of the constant personal attacks and as I've stated before, I'm only posting here occasionally in order to avoid conflicts.

The main reason for me to interfere in this thread was because of the slurs against the Kes fans just because we question the unnecessary destruction of our favorite character. Besides that, I'm not backing down for bullies, even if I now try to avoid the personal bickering which I was dragged into before. It's not up to a very small group of people to decide if I'm wanted or not.

exodus wrote:
Quote
*sigh*


You've included my wish that we'd seen Kes live out a normal Ocampan lifespan during her time on Voyager as "character destruction," too.


It is not.


What I would have loved to see with Kes is an exploration of the universal fact that we all die eventually.


This does not mean that I've not experienced loss and death. It does not mean that I'm an evil, insensitive person. It does not mean that I didn't love my late sweetie with all my heart. All of which have been suggested by you and/or your buddies at one time or another.


It would really help your arguments if you'd stop assigned motives to people. You are not Ocampan, Lynx. You cannot read minds.


No, I cannot read minds but the actions from some of them I'm constantly debating with are very predictable.

I have all respect for your loss and I do understand how it feels to lose beloved ones.  I've lost some beloved people myself.

And for different reasons, I'm not too fond of seeing my favorite characters being wiped out, killed off and ruined. As you probably have seen, I'm very angry over the recent destruction of Janeway too.

I must also ask: If it had been Seven Of Nine who had been destroyed in the same way as Kes in "Fury" and then killed off, would you have supported that? Would you write a story in which Seven wasslowy killed off just to explore the fact that we all die eventually?

teya1020

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Report this Apr. 13 2010, 5:47 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 13 2010, 5:25 pm)
I must also ask: If it had been Seven Of Nine who had been destroyed in the same way as Kes in "Fury" and then killed off, would you have supported that? Would you write a story in which Seven wasslowy killed off just to explore the fact that we all die eventually?

Actually, in my (pending, someday, when I have the time to write it) fanfic, Seven has health issues because of her Borg implants. She can't live just anywhere, she can't go on extended away missions... Her life is restricted because of her need to regenerate.

In other words, I treat her much like a contemporary transplant patient.

She faces trials and tribulations like all of us do. These aren't things to be waved away with a sweet platitude or a positive outlook or some wonderful tech. They are things that have repercussions.

Since you love to bring up things outside Trek, I will, too.

I've recently been rewatching (for the first time in 20 years) the 1980s TV series "thirtysomething." As an aside, I'm pleased with how well it's held up--a really well-done series.

Well, in season 3, one character gets cancer. Not thyroid or basal cell skin cancer (something relatively easily cured), but ovarian. A killer. In the end they decided not to kill her off--because so many women were writing in and saying how the storyline was giving them hope in their own battles. The character arc was written *extremely* well.

So what did they do? They killed off another character in a car accident. I remember when the episode aired. No one knew it was coming. It shocked viewers big time.

Now I loved that character. He was probably my favorite of the male characters on the show. So I was shocked when they killed him off.

But not angry. Because, guess what? People die. And it's how the living handle that loss that makes for an interesting story.

I didn't boycott ABC or send letters to TPTB complaining.

I might have sent them one congratulating them on a most awesome season exploring the way people deal with life's challenges.

Lynx677

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Report this Apr. 14 2010, 3:03 pm

^^
Well, we have a very different taste when it comes to storytelling and entertainment and a very different view of many things.

I guess we can at least agree about that.  :)

teya1020

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Report this Apr. 14 2010, 4:41 pm

Yep, I guess we do. I don't like sweet. ;)

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