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"Fury"

teya1020

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 8:29 pm

Quote (Yanks @ April 07 2010, 8:03 pm)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 8:00 pm)
There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.

Which on Teya?

"Tattoo."


But maybe it doesn't matter. After all I'm descended from people too stupid to learn how to speak without alien genetic assistance.

:rolleyes:

TheFounder

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 15676

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 10:28 pm

Quote (Admiral_JTK @ April 01 2010, 8:07 pm)
Completely unnecessary filler episode, and waste of film and air time in re imagining a useless character that neither had or served any remotely qualifying or discernible purpose in the show since its inception.

They should have made this episode the series finale and have Kes send Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant.

:p

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 10:01 am

Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 8:00 pm)
Quote (scnj @ April 07 2010, 6:13 pm)
Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

So, it's Voyager's worst episode because it insults the integrity of a character and that character's fans.


Interesting.


There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.


Sorry if I consider that worse.

..or "Up The Long Ladder"

"Code of Honor"

All insulting stereotypes done by Trek writers and far more offensive to a real race & culture's than anything in fiction like "Fury".

teya1020

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 11:02 am

Quote (exodus201 @ April 08 2010, 10:01 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 8:00 pm)
Quote (scnj @ April 07 2010, 6:13 pm)
Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

So, it's Voyager's worst episode because it insults the integrity of a character and that character's fans.


Interesting.


There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.


Sorry if I consider that worse.

..or "Up The Long Ladder"

"Code of Honor"

All insulting stereotypes done by Trek writers and far more offensive to a real race & culture's than anything in fiction like "Fury".

Preach it!

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 11:12 am

Quote (teya1020 @ April 08 2010, 11:02 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 08 2010, 10:01 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 8:00 pm)
Quote (scnj @ April 07 2010, 6:13 pm)
Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

So, it's Voyager's worst episode because it insults the integrity of a character and that character's fans.


Interesting.


There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.


Sorry if I consider that worse.

..or "Up The Long Ladder"

"Code of Honor"

All insulting stereotypes done by Trek writers and far more offensive to a real race & culture's than anything in fiction like "Fury".

Preach it!

stand up testify my brother!



speaking of "tattoo," there is one scene that i do watch (while skipping most of the rest) b/c both kate and robert had trouble staying in character and being serious. in robert's words the whole premise of that episode was beyond ridiculous (in my view it was recoculous). watch the scene when janeway and chakotay are in his office and he's explaining the rubber tree people history. you'll notice that KM has a twinge of a smile on her face whenever they do a close up of her and that's b/c RB couldn't keep from laughing or smiling when he was off camera. ¿then as the scene ends and chakotay crosses in front of the camera you'll see him start to really smile. in his words, as soon as the scene ended he busted out laughing. ¿apparently it took many, many takes to get that scene and the director was not pleased with either KM or RB.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 11:40 am

Quote (brcarthey @ April 08 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 08 2010, 11:02 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 08 2010, 10:01 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 8:00 pm)
Quote (scnj @ April 07 2010, 6:13 pm)
Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

So, it's Voyager's worst episode because it insults the integrity of a character and that character's fans.


Interesting.


There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.


Sorry if I consider that worse.

..or "Up The Long Ladder"

"Code of Honor"

All insulting stereotypes done by Trek writers and far more offensive to a real race & culture's than anything in fiction like "Fury".

Preach it!

stand up testify my brother!



speaking of "tattoo," there is one scene that i do watch (while skipping most of the rest) b/c both kate and robert had trouble staying in character and being serious b/c in robert's words the who premise of that episode was beyond ridiculous (in my view it was recoculous). watch the scene when janeway and chakotay are in his office and he's explaining the rubber tree people history. you'll notice that KM has a twinge of a smile on her face whenever they do a close up of her and that's b/c RB couldn't keep from laughing or smiling when he was off camera. ¿then as the scene ends and chakotay crosses in front of the camera you'll see him start to really smile. in his words, as soon as the scene ended he busted out laughing. ¿apparently it took many, many takes to get that scene and the director was not pleased with either KM or RB.

I think my choir is ready to sing!!!!  :laugh: \




Well yeah!
You try being a serious actor and read a line with the words "Rubber Tree People" in it.   Seriously, what is this "Day of the Trifids"???  :laugh:

teya1020

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 1:42 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ April 08 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 08 2010, 11:02 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 08 2010, 10:01 am)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 8:00 pm)
Quote (scnj @ April 07 2010, 6:13 pm)
Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

So, it's Voyager's worst episode because it insults the integrity of a character and that character's fans.


Interesting.


There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.


Sorry if I consider that worse.

..or "Up The Long Ladder"

"Code of Honor"

All insulting stereotypes done by Trek writers and far more offensive to a real race & culture's than anything in fiction like "Fury".

Preach it!

stand up testify my brother!



speaking of "tattoo," there is one scene that i do watch (while skipping most of the rest) b/c both kate and robert had trouble staying in character and being serious b/c in robert's words the who premise of that episode was beyond ridiculous (in my view it was recoculous). watch the scene when janeway and chakotay are in his office and he's explaining the rubber tree people history. you'll notice that KM has a twinge of a smile on her face whenever they do a close up of her and that's b/c RB couldn't keep from laughing or smiling when he was off camera. ¿then as the scene ends and chakotay crosses in front of the camera you'll see him start to really smile. in his words, as soon as the scene ended he busted out laughing. ¿apparently it took many, many takes to get that scene and the director was not pleased with either KM or RB.

:laugh:


But remember!  


That's not anywhere near as bad as "Fury," because "Fury" insults Kes fans.


They are important.


American Indians are not.


Make sure you get that straight, guys!

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 4:23 pm

As one of those Kes fans who obviously are that important, I would like to add that I have many times stated my dislike over how the American Indians were described in "Tattoo".

So even Kes fans react to stupidities and insults against other characters and ethnic groups as well.

But despite that, obviously we aren't allowed to express our dislike over how our favorite character was destroyed in "Fury".

After all, we're just fans of a purged character, now we are pointed out as ignorant to racial slurs in TV series as well.

As for "Fury", it was a horrible, badly written piece of crap which insulted the fans of the character Kes and since this is a Voyager forum, we do have all the right in the world to criticize the character destruction in "Fury".

teya1020

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 4:46 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 08 2010, 4:23 pm)
As one of those Kes fans who obviously are that important, I would like to add that I have many times stated my dislike over how the American Indians were described in "Tattoo".

*yawn*


And right on schedule, here comes Lynx responding to things that weren't said.


I know you've spoken out about the racist stereotypes in "Tattoo."


Quote
But despite that, obviously we aren't allowed to express our dislike over how our favorite character was destroyed in "Fury".


No one said you weren't allowed to express your dislike for "Fury."


Some folks simply disagreed with you that it was the worst of Voyager--and gave their reasons for doing so.


Do you have a problem with differing opinions?

Quote
As for "Fury", it was a horrible, badly written piece of crap which insulted the fans of the character Kes and since this is a Voyager forum, we do have all the right in the world to criticize the character destruction in "Fury".


Of course you do. And I have every right to disagree with you without you coming in with guns blazing accusing me of things I didn't say or do.

And I also have the right to point out that an episode which offends a fan group over their perceived "destruction" of a fictional character is not as obnoxious as an episode which posits real live human beings as not human.

You may disagree with that opinion, but I do have the right to express it.

nthdrone

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 17288

Report this Apr. 08 2010, 5:35 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 8:18 am)
Quote (Yanks @ April 02 2010, 10:16 am)
I just always thought this was a horrible episode.

"Old grouchy I have to kill everyone on Voyager" was WAY out of character for Kes.

Effects? Yeah, they were cool, but you can't convince me that Kes would turn on everyone she loved like that.

Just horrible.

..but that's not what it's about.

It's about Kes suffering from the Ocampian version of Alzhimers.

Remember "Before & After"?
Remember how at first everyone thought Kes was going through the Mor-Elogium and her daughter told us one of the signs was senility?
Remember what Kes told us about the Mor-Elogium from "Elogium".

Watch "Fury" again, watch Kes' actions.
She doesn't know what she's doing, she's suffering from dimentia. ?She doesn't remember the crew as her friends.

There are clues all in the ep.
She can't remember Tom's name.
She doesn't remember how she left Voyager.
She doesn't clearly remember Janeway and she's see her friends as an enemy.
These are signs of someone suffering from senile dementia.

The hologram young Kes makes cements it, she tells old Kes "Do you remember me, the little girl you used to be? ?This isn't you or what you're about. ?Try and remember who you used to be. ?Try and remember me."

Then Janeway asks Kes: Do you remember making that recording? ? Kes doesn't, she looks at Janeway and you can see on her face, she doesn't remember her either.

Suddenly Kes smiles & her first words are: "I remember now! ?You told me to make it to help me...too help myself. ? All these years, there was so much pain and confusion(message!!!;) that I had forgotten(message #2!!!;)..."

The last scene with Neelix has it too.

Kes to Neelix: See anybody you remember?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now.)
Neelix: "Only you."

When she gets on the transporter pad before beaming out, she turns to Neelix and smiles. She just remembered who he was.

That's what Janeway's words about ":helping a lost friend find there way" was in referance to Kes' condition of Alzhimers.

Oh.
Em.
Gee!

You are absolutely RIGHT! I never thought of her moralogium! It totally slipped my mind. So, yes. Kes was in fact acting IN CHARACTER! Thanks, exodus!

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 09 2010, 9:22 am

Quote (nthdrone @ April 08 2010, 5:35 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 8:18 am)
Quote (Yanks @ April 02 2010, 10:16 am)
I just always thought this was a horrible episode.

"Old grouchy I have to kill everyone on Voyager" was WAY out of character for Kes.

Effects? Yeah, they were cool, but you can't convince me that Kes would turn on everyone she loved like that.

Just horrible.

..but that's not what it's about.

It's about Kes suffering from the Ocampian version of Alzhimers.

Remember "Before & After"?
Remember how at first everyone thought Kes was going through the Mor-Elogium and her daughter told us one of the signs was senility?
Remember what Kes told us about the Mor-Elogium from "Elogium".

Watch "Fury" again, watch Kes' actions.
She doesn't know what she's doing, she's suffering from dimentia. ?She doesn't remember the crew as her friends.

There are clues all in the ep.
She can't remember Tom's name.
She doesn't remember how she left Voyager.
She doesn't clearly remember Janeway and she's see her friends as an enemy.
These are signs of someone suffering from senile dementia.

The hologram young Kes makes cements it, she tells old Kes "Do you remember me, the little girl you used to be? ?This isn't you or what you're about. ?Try and remember who you used to be. ?Try and remember me."

Then Janeway asks Kes: Do you remember making that recording? ? Kes doesn't, she looks at Janeway and you can see on her face, she doesn't remember her either.

Suddenly Kes smiles & her first words are: "I remember now! ?You told me to make it to help me...too help myself. ? All these years, there was so much pain and confusion(message!!!;) that I had forgotten(message #2!!!;)..."

The last scene with Neelix has it too.

Kes to Neelix: See anybody you remember?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now.)
Neelix: "Only you."

When she gets on the transporter pad before beaming out, she turns to Neelix and smiles. She just remembered who he was.

That's what Janeway's words about ":helping a lost friend find there way" was in referance to Kes' condition of Alzhimers.

Oh.
Em.
Gee!

You are absolutely RIGHT! I never thought of her moralogium! It totally slipped my mind. So, yes. Kes was in fact acting IN CHARACTER! Thanks, exodus!

You are very much welcome.  :D

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 09 2010, 2:44 pm

Quote (nthdrone @ April 07 2010, 6:35 pm)
Oh.
Em.
Gee!

You are absolutely RIGHT! I never thought of her moralogium! It totally slipped my mind. So, yes. Kes was in fact acting IN CHARACTER! Thanks, exodus!

No, she wasn't.

In fact, the whole scenario is just another example of how flawed the story was.

Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.

According to "canon", the morologium takes place the last month of an Ocampa's life, when the Ocampa has reached the age of 9 years. In 2376, Kes was only 5 and a half. Therefore she shouldn't be in the morologium state.

There were no reasons for Kes to feel any hatred or anger against Janeway and the Voyager crew. She joined the crew of her own free will and were always happy on Voyager.

The real Kes would never even dream of harming her friends on the ship. She would rather sacrifice herself than harm anyone of her friends.

Conclusion: The character, the pathetic monster we saw in that horrible excuse for a Star Trek episode has no resemblance at all to the real Kes, therefore it can't be the real Kes.

Not to mention that the whole episode is so flawed and full of contradictions. It must have been made  either out of total stupidity or pure menace in order to insult the fans of the character.

BashirBonesBeverly

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POSTS: 2003

Report this Apr. 09 2010, 3:49 pm

oh no

teya1020

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POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 09 2010, 5:03 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 09 2010, 2:44 pm)
Becoming an energy being is the highest state for the Ocampa, according to "canon". It's a sort of afterlife which the Ocampa want to reach. Therefore, they shouldn't become crazy after reaching that stadium and they shouldn't age either.

Please quote where that appears in the series. The only mention of Ocampan afterlife that I recall is Kes telling Patera that Ocampans believe their spirit goes into the earth after they die. She said nothing about transforming into something else--and she would have said something if she believed that, since that's what Patera's people believed.


Quote
According to "canon", the morologium takes place the last month of an Ocampa's life, when the Ocampa has reached the age of 9 years. In 2376, Kes was only 5 and a half. Therefore she shouldn't be in the morologium state.



Again please provide evidence of this. IIRC, it was never stated clearly in the show.

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Apr. 09 2010, 5:13 pm

while i don't have anything personally against lynx, whenever he posts in a thread that deals with kes "darth vader's theme" always starts playing in my mind.

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