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"Fury"

> id="QUOTE">JOYOFVGR wrote:
:laugh:

No, Lynx. My opinion is simply that, my opinion. I listened to everyone's theories and decided for myself what I think would have made for a good story. But you would be happy to know that I also like that fan fic piece which has Kes coming back and explaining that the Kes in Fury was sent by Susperia. I think that would be great too and would have made for a nice follow up or even a good way to end the series, not that Kes should have saved Voyager, but it would have been nice if she played some part in the finale. I just think that if Kes were going to be an on going character it would have been good if she were a villian. Seska was a good Villian and I loved that whole arch. Seven would have been too predictable because she was borg. Actually, Harry would have made a good villan though. I agree with you on that.

Edit: I like discussing who would be a good villan and why, so I made it a poll in another thread. Thanks for the idea, Lynx. :D

LoveofVGR

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 11:12 am

Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 11:57 am

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:09 am)
Honestly, I think there are Kes fans out there, but after her character left Voyager, Kes was pretty much forgotten about. I don't think people have a tremendous love for Kes, but I don't think she was hated either. I would venture to guess people just don't really give her character a lot of thought. I know that I wouldn't have if I didn't join this board. I always liked her and when she left I felt the whole series changed. Not just because of her, but it seemed to go in a different direction, more TNG like. I don't think that was necessarily a bad thing, but I always wonder about what could've been.

Yes, I think many are "indifferent" toward the character but I still don't believe her fanbase is or ever was large.  Not that there is anything wrong with it but I don't think allot of folks were apart of some letter writing campaigne either.  I think between one obsessive fan & those that are indifferent, it was somewhere in the middle.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 12:02 pm

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

Exactly.

Beside a short life span, she wouldn't be unique.
Give her a normal life span & she might as well be an average human.

LoveofVGR

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 12:29 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 12:02 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

Exactly.

Beside a short life span, she wouldn't be unique.
Give her a normal life span & she might as well be an average human.

Yes, but she also did have very strong mental powers, but what exactly would you do with them? That's the dilema. Sure she could be a superhero, but that just wouldn't seem right to me in the Trek Universe. I think the writers were trying to use the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" scenario with regards to them. This is why Kes got a "rush" when she used them and perhaps why she came back so violent and powerful in Fury.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 12:41 pm

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 12:29 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 12:02 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

Exactly.

Beside a short life span, she wouldn't be unique.
Give her a normal life span & she might as well be an average human.

Yes, but she also did have very strong mental powers, but what exactly would you do with them? That's the dilema. Sure she could be a superhero, but that just wouldn't seem right to me in the Trek Universe. I think the writers were trying to use the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" scenario with regards to them. This is why Kes got a "rush" when she used them and perhaps why she came back so violent and powerful in Fury.

However, you can go but so far with the ultimate power thing because then the question becomes: Is Kes as powerful as Q?
If so, then what problems would Voyager ever have?
If not, then why give them to her at all and what purpose do they serve going forward.  Kes wasn't like Odo, to where she still had an edge to her even without using powers.

brcarthey

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 7:21 pm

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

the problem with her being a counselor is i could see at least half the crew not trusting her due to lack of life experience. i mean she's b/t 1 and 2 years old when she joins voyager. the crew has underwear (if they wear any) that are older than her.  she have emotional and mental maturity, but that won't always help her in counseling sessions.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 8:47 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ April 29 2010, 7:21 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

the problem with her being a counselor is i could see at least half the crew not trusting her due to lack of life experience. i mean she's b/t 1 and 2 years old when she joins voyager. the crew has underwear (if they wear any) that are older than her. ?she have emotional and mental maturity, but that won't always help her in counseling sessions.

If I had to tweek her, I'd use her powers and make her like a human tri-corder. ? I'd have Voyager use less power but use her abilities in a way that would be in-tune with everything around her. ?Like for example: If she touched something, she could tell you the components of it or it's carbon history. ?I'd amp up Neelix' trade skills, make him more like a used car sales man. ?Keep him paired up with Kes and they'd become Voyager's ultimate trade negotiators. Making her nurse was a dead end.  That's why Seven worked. Voyager needed Engineers, people that have ideas to build things to get them home faster.   Sickbay was always empty, what help did the EMH ever need?

However, I still don't think I'd have her make it back to the Alpha Quad. with them. ?I still liked the idea of having Neelix and her jump ship before the end and not together either. ?It's more believable I think, to not have everybody that starts the journey would want to finish it.

Admiral_JTK

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Report this Apr. 29 2010, 11:38 pm

You people are wasting your time - All of you.

teya1020

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Report this Apr. 30 2010, 12:02 pm

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 12:29 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 12:02 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 29 2010, 11:12 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 29 2010, 11:02 am)
Plus, it didn't help Kes servied no function on the ship.
We all saw how the Doc. even with her there, didn't really require a nurse.
It was also very obvious once he recieved his moblie emitter her role would decrease.
What was she going to do, water plants and serve coffee to Janeway all day?

I agree. I think she was a difficult character to write for, but she could have had a role like Guinan. There was no ship's counselor and Kes had a very warm and calming way about her. The problem with that scenario, however, is that Trek already had Guinan. It would have been too similar.

Exactly.

Beside a short life span, she wouldn't be unique.
Give her a normal life span & she might as well be an average human.

Yes, but she also did have very strong mental powers, but what exactly would you do with them? That's the dilema. Sure she could be a superhero, but that just wouldn't seem right to me in the Trek Universe. I think the writers were trying to use the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" scenario with regards to them. This is why Kes got a "rush" when she used them and perhaps why she came back so violent and powerful in Fury.

Those mental powers don't make her unique in the Trekverse.


There have been plenty of telepaths in Trek.

teya1020

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Report this Apr. 30 2010, 1:56 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 30 2010, 12:33 pm)
All the "unique" personality traits just discribed Troi & Dax too.

Not to mention Uhura & Chapel.

JOYOFVGR

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Report this Apr. 30 2010, 9:04 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 30 2010, 12:19 pm)
Quote (JOYOFVGR @ April 28 2010, 8:47 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 28 2010, 9:01 pm)
Quote (teya1020 @ April 28 2010, 7:53 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 28 2010, 5:06 pm)
The comparision to Darth Vader isn't really accurate either. There was a reason for Dart Vader to become what he became. There was no reason at all for Kes to become evil and turn against her old friends.

Actually, Lynx, there is.

When Kes metamorphosed into an energy being, she ended up alone. She had no one to communicate with, no one to share her experiences with.

It was like spending time in solitary confinement.

And it's been well-documented that extended periods of isolation turn even the best of us bonkers.

Kes responded as humanoids do to isolation--she lost her mind.

Honestly, I can't wait until Lynx wraps his mind around the fact that Kes gave up her stuff to smelly homeless rat faced Neelix. ?Then turned her out so bad, she followed him like lost puppy.

Yes folks, that's canon too.
Think about it, when they found Neelix he was living in garbage and couldn't find water.........and Kes got moist over him.

Eeeeeeww!

Lynx you aren't going to like what I have to say one bit. Just warning you before you read on:


But Exodus you have a point. It shows how desperate Kes was to get off Ocampa, maybe she just used Neelix. Then in Warlord, when she becomes irritable she's pretty mean to Neelix. Maybe it really was intended for Kes to become a villain at some point.

I'm sorry to say this but you seem to have been in bad company too long, thus accepting all the weird theories which are presented to "explain" the deliberate destruction of the character.

Well, I do admit that I wouldn't have thought of those theories on my own, but after having discussed this character at length I do find some merit to them.

But I do really think there are endless possibilities regarding Kes' character because she turned into an energy being and had those powers. Almost anything could happen.

Whether or not they were serious about Kes becoming a villain is besides the point. I know you won't like this, but I actually think it would have been a cool idea. That was my point. And I could see that happening based on some of the episodes. Would it be out of character? Of course. That's what makes it a good twist imo.

brcarthey

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Report this May. 01 2010, 12:46 pm

lynx, as a famous american politician (daniel patrick moynihan) once said, ""everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own fact."

teya1020

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Report this May. 03 2010, 3:48 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ May 03 2010, 2:00 pm)
^^
Honestly exodus, you aren't a particularily nice and friendly person.

This is a direct attack. Otherwise known as a flame.

Quote
Don't you have anything to come up with but insults, malice and snide remarks?


Excuse me?


Since when did "you aren't a particularily nice and friendly person" become a compliment?  


In the English spoken here in the US, this comment is an insult.


Quote
But they do at least have the grace not to spam the forums with hateful comments about the character and her fans.



I'm sorry, Lynx, but is there some place on the board where a rule is posted that says, "No negative comments about Kes permitted"?

Lynx677

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Report this May. 03 2010, 4:58 pm

Quote (teya1020 @ May 02 2010, 4:48 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ May 03 2010, 2:00 pm)
^^
Honestly exodus, you aren't a particularily nice and friendly person.

This is a direct attack. Otherwise known as a flame.

Quote
Don't you have anything to come up with but insults, malice and snide remarks?


Excuse me?


Since when did "you aren't a particularily nice and friendly person" become a compliment? ¿


In the English spoken here in the US, this comment is an insult.


Quote
But they do at least have the grace not to spam the forums with hateful comments about the character and her fans.



I'm sorry, Lynx, but is there some place on the board where a rule is posted that says, "No negative comments about Kes permitted"?

First of all, what do you have to do with this?

As a matter of fact, my little comment in the previous post is nothing compared to all the crap exodus constantly throws at me. Haven't you noticed how he turns every debate in which I participate to a debate about me instead of the actual subject and some of his comments aren't particularily nice to say the least. To accuse another poster to "fight with his personal demons" is rude and can be regarded as flaming too. But I didn't see any protest from you then, teya.

I don't call everyone who disagrees with me a "hater". That's an exaggeration. I'm referring to that tiny group of people who I encounter on several forums when kes is brought up, the tiny group who constantly are trashing the character and yes, it's the same people I've been arguing with for many years.

If you and your friends are allowed to come up with negative comments about the character over and over again, then I do think I'm allowed to defend the character.

And if certain people are allowed to come up with personal attacks against me and in some cases insult and provoke me by coming up with disgusting pictures, then I guess I'm allowed to behave in the same way against them.

JOYOFVGR

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Report this May. 03 2010, 6:33 pm

border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Lynx677 @ May 01 2010, 3:49 am)

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