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"Fury"

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 27 2010, 11:15 am

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 27 2010, 10:42 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 9:02 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 26 2010, 8:52 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 8:47 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ April 26 2010, 6:32 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 4:57 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 26 2010, 4:49 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 25 2010, 5:43 pm)
However, we've also seen on DS9 that no mirror universe Voyager exists and the effects Kirk had on the mirror universe doesn't reach the Delta Quad.

Are we absolutely sure of that?

Yep.
Tuvok is in DS9's mirror mirror universe & still in the Alpha Quaderant. ?Nobody has ever heard of the Borg, so no Defiant or Intripid class ships exist. ?So, no Voyager.
People in mirror universe had to kidnap Sisko in order for him to design the Defiant for their universe.

True but there is evidence that suggest theres more then 1 "Mirror" universe.

Please explain.

Cloaking Devises.

Durring the first "Mirror Universe" episodes on DS9 the Alliance ships both Klingon and Cardasian. had cloaking devices.

But in the final Mirror Universe episode of DS9 the Alliance never seen or heard of a cloaking device.

Hmmm, I have to watch that again.
I wanna know what changed things.

TNG also had an episode where the end showed numerous Enterprises from many parallel universes. They are not all necessarily "mirror" universes, but I would imagine that there are different variations, none the less. I would imagine the same would exist for Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. They certainly exist in fan fiction. (yummy) :D

That's true.
Still, it doesn't give reason why a Kes from an alternate universe would come to ours to prevent what happen to her in that one.


I don't acknowledge fan fiction as canon.


Oh BTW, to add the the Alzhimers debate.

Sarek & Kor both suffered from dimentia due to senility.
Two more examples to support that it's not unlikely Kes had it in "Fury" as well.

LoveofVGR

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 205

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 12:16 pm

I don't acknowledge fan fiction as canon either. I just threw it out there and I agree that as it stands, the Kes in Fury was ¿the real Kes, sorry Lynx.

Of course that can always be undone, but honestly there would never be a need to un do it. It's not likely Lien would ever revise that character or that tptb would have a reason bring that character back, but you never know. In Trek anything is possible. (*shrugs*)

I also agree with the Alzheimers theory, and I think that was the writer's intention. I honestly just found that whole story to be weak though.

I barely remembered the events of Cold Fire, etc. that would have backed up that theory. It wasn't until we discussed it here that I even saw the connection, and I saw Voyager in syndication, so not that much time had passed between seasons. I would imagine that Fury seemed even more out of left field the first time around.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 27 2010, 12:26 pm

^^Yes, I agree.

I think during it's original run, the time travel element in the story throws people off as well as not seeing Kes for 3 years.  So it was easy to forget everything that was told to us during "Coldfire", "Elogium" , etc.   Plus, they aren't very popular eps. among most of the fan base.  So I'm also aware many don't remember those facts because they probably only watched them once or twice.

LoveofVGR

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POSTS: 205

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 12:30 pm

Exactly. I watched those episodes, but I really didn't pay too much attention to the details. I even forgot about Before and After showing Kes as aged. I was more focused on her and Tom in that ep.

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 3:42 pm

Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 26 2010, 1:16 pm)
I don't acknowledge fan fiction as canon either. I just threw it out there and I agree that as it stands, the Kes in Fury was ?the real Kes, sorry Lynx.

Of course that can always be undone, but honestly there would never be a need to un do it. It's not likely Lien would ever revise that character or that tptb would have a reason bring that character back, but you never know. In Trek anything is possible. (*shrugs*)

I also agree with the Alzheimers theory, and I think that was the writer's intention. I honestly just found that whole story to be weak though.

I barely remembered the events of Cold Fire, etc. that would have backed up that theory. It wasn't until we discussed it here that I even saw the connection, and I saw Voyager in syndication, so not that much time had passed between seasons. I would imagine that Fury seemed even more out of left field the first time around.

I refuse to accept that explanation because the creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance to the real Kes.

As for "The Alzheimer theory", it's standing on quicksand, based as it is on a very flawed and contradictional episode.

Not to mention that the poster who came up with it has many times stated his dislike of the character and her fans so I guess there is some malice involved as well.

exodus201

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POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 3:48 pm

^^Nobody that dislikes Kes would spend time watching her eps. just to figure out canon facts to support what seen in "Fury".

I have no dislike for Kes fans and I'm very friendly with good majority of them.

Once again, you're trying to drag someone else into something that doesn't involve them.
It's so very sad how desperate for attention you are to make folks feel sorry for you.

Picard in "All Good Things..."
Sarek in "Sarek"
Kor in "Once More Into the Breach"
Dr. Ira Graves in "Schizoid Man"
All suffered from a version of dimentia due to senility but it's only seen as malice to you if it's done to Kes. ¿ :eyesroll:

The more you post, the more your arguement becomes paper thin.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 3:57 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 3:42 pm)
I refuse to accept that explanation because the creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance to the real Kes.

She DID have a psychical resemblance.
Quote

As for "The Alzheimer theory", it's standing on quicksand, based as it is on a very flawed and contradictional episode.


Your in denial.

I dont agree with the theroy but it does have a bases in canon.There is evidence that supports the theroy.

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 4:55 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 4:48 pm)
^^Nobody that dislikes Kes would spend time watching her eps. just to figure out canon facts to support what seen in "Fury".

I have no dislike for Kes fans and I'm very friendly with good majority of them.

Once again, you're trying to drag someone else into something that doesn't involve them.
It's so very sad how desperate for attention you are to make folks feel sorry for you.

Picard in "All Good Things..."
Sarek in "Sarek"
Kor in "Once More Into the Breach"
Dr. Ira Graves in "Schizoid Man"
All suffered from a version of dimentia due to senility but it's only seen as malice to you if it's done to Kes. ? :eyesroll:

The more you post, the more your arguement becomes paper thin.

It looks like you spend a lot of time watching "Fury" just to find proof for your theories.

I don't think that you have much contacts with fans of the character, definitely not "a majority" of them.

This has nothing to do with me. Why should people feel sorry for me? I do at least have the ability to come up with positive solutions when it comes to the character. Not to mention that I dare to speak up about things I find wrong.

It's all about the character and the sad waste of a good character.

Actually, I'm very much annoyed over how Janeway has been treated in the recent books too but at least no one is trying to slap that "canon" into my face over and over again.

Picard? Last time I saw him (Nemesis), he did seem to be in very good health.

As for yur posts, your dislike for the character and the actress are all too visible.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 5:02 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 4:55 pm)
Actually, I'm very much annoyed over how Janeway has been treated in the recent books too but at least no one is trying to slap that "canon" into my face over and over again.

Thats because canon doesnt apply to the books.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 5:11 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 4:55 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 4:48 pm)
^^Nobody that dislikes Kes would spend time watching her eps. just to figure out canon facts to support what seen in "Fury".

I have no dislike for Kes fans and I'm very friendly with good majority of them.

Once again, you're trying to drag someone else into something that doesn't involve them.
It's so very sad how desperate for attention you are to make folks feel sorry for you.

Picard in "All Good Things..."
Sarek in "Sarek"
Kor in "Once More Into the Breach"
Dr. Ira Graves in "Schizoid Man"
All suffered from a version of dimentia due to senility but it's only seen as malice to you if it's done to Kes. ? :eyesroll:

The more you post, the more your arguement becomes paper thin.

It looks like you spend a lot of time watching "Fury" just to find proof for your theories.

I don't think that you have much contacts with fans of the character, definitely not "a majority" of them.

This has nothing to do with me. Why should people feel sorry for me? I do at least have the ability to come up with positive solutions when it comes to the character. Not to mention that I dare to speak up about things I find wrong.

It's all about the character and the sad waste of a good character.

Actually, I'm very much annoyed over how Janeway has been treated in the recent books too but at least no one is trying to slap that "canon" into my face over and over again.

Picard? Last time I saw him (Nemesis), he did seem to be in very good health.

As for yur posts, your dislike for the character and the actress are all too visible.

Yes Lynx, that's what research is.
Plus, I wouldn't be much of a fan of Voyager if I didn't watch the show.

What you think about me & what is fact are two very different things and always dead wrong.

If it has nothing to do with you, why repeatedly bring up how you feel your being picked on to those that aren't involved?
They don't even reply to it, which means they don't care.
They shouldn't because they don't want to be bothered with it.
I can't say I blame them.

Too bad "All Good Things.." takes place years after "Nemesis". ?If it still happens at all.

As for your post, your dislike of...Blah, blah, blah.
Your typical petty catty comments.
Do you snap your fingers too as you write this stuff? ¿

Which brings us to you bringing up getting things slapped in your face.  Uh-Huh. Hmmm..
Did you read the OP's post?
He said he like "Fury" and asked for comment and opinions about it.  He/she didn't ask "What does Lynx, approve of?" or "What does Lynx & Lynx alone allow?"   He/she asked EVERYONE.
Saying something repeatedly doesn't change anyone's mind.


My personal feelings about the character & actress doesn't negate that I know facts about the show in great detail and can take you to the mat on them in a fair debate.

Admiral_JTK

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4833

Report this Apr. 27 2010, 11:10 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 3:42 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 26 2010, 1:16 pm)
I don't acknowledge fan fiction as canon either. I just threw it out there and I agree that as it stands, the Kes in Fury was ?the real Kes, sorry Lynx.

Of course that can always be undone, but honestly there would never be a need to un do it. It's not likely Lien would ever revise that character or that tptb would have a reason bring that character back, but you never know. In Trek anything is possible. (*shrugs*)

I also agree with the Alzheimers theory, and I think that was the writer's intention. I honestly just found that whole story to be weak though.

I barely remembered the events of Cold Fire, etc. that would have backed up that theory. It wasn't until we discussed it here that I even saw the connection, and I saw Voyager in syndication, so not that much time had passed between seasons. I would imagine that Fury seemed even more out of left field the first time around.

I refuse to accept that explanation because the creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance to the real Kes.

As for "The Alzheimer theory", it's standing on quicksand, based as it is on a very flawed and contradictional episode.

Not to mention that the poster who came up with it has many times stated his dislike of the character and her fans so I guess there is some malice involved as well.

Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one gets filled first.

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 28 2010, 1:13 pm

Quote (Admiral_JTK @ April 27 2010, 12:10 am)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 3:42 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 26 2010, 1:16 pm)
I don't acknowledge fan fiction as canon either. I just threw it out there and I agree that as it stands, the Kes in Fury was ?the real Kes, sorry Lynx.

Of course that can always be undone, but honestly there would never be a need to un do it. It's not likely Lien would ever revise that character or that tptb would have a reason bring that character back, but you never know. In Trek anything is possible. (*shrugs*)

I also agree with the Alzheimers theory, and I think that was the writer's intention. I honestly just found that whole story to be weak though.

I barely remembered the events of Cold Fire, etc. that would have backed up that theory. It wasn't until we discussed it here that I even saw the connection, and I saw Voyager in syndication, so not that much time had passed between seasons. I would imagine that Fury seemed even more out of left field the first time around.

I refuse to accept that explanation because the creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance to the real Kes.

As for "The Alzheimer theory", it's standing on quicksand, based as it is on a very flawed and contradictional episode.

Not to mention that the poster who came up with it has many times stated his dislike of the character and her fans so I guess there is some malice involved as well.

Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one gets filled first.

A very intelligent and constructive comment indeed from captain H.

Lynx677

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7859

Report this Apr. 28 2010, 1:20 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 6:11 pm)
Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 4:55 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 26 2010, 4:48 pm)
^^Nobody that dislikes Kes would spend time watching her eps. just to figure out canon facts to support what seen in "Fury".

I have no dislike for Kes fans and I'm very friendly with good majority of them.

Once again, you're trying to drag someone else into something that doesn't involve them.
It's so very sad how desperate for attention you are to make folks feel sorry for you.

Picard in "All Good Things..."
Sarek in "Sarek"
Kor in "Once More Into the Breach"
Dr. Ira Graves in "Schizoid Man"
All suffered from a version of dimentia due to senility but it's only seen as malice to you if it's done to Kes. ? :eyesroll:

The more you post, the more your arguement becomes paper thin.

It looks like you spend a lot of time watching "Fury" just to find proof for your theories.

I don't think that you have much contacts with fans of the character, definitely not "a majority" of them.

This has nothing to do with me. Why should people feel sorry for me? I do at least have the ability to come up with positive solutions when it comes to the character. Not to mention that I dare to speak up about things I find wrong.

It's all about the character and the sad waste of a good character.

Actually, I'm very much annoyed over how Janeway has been treated in the recent books too but at least no one is trying to slap that "canon" into my face over and over again.

Picard? Last time I saw him (Nemesis), he did seem to be in very good health.

As for yur posts, your dislike for the character and the actress are all too visible.

Yes Lynx, that's what research is.
Plus, I wouldn't be much of a fan of Voyager if I didn't watch the show.

What you think about me & what is fact are two very different things and always dead wrong.

If it has nothing to do with you, why repeatedly bring up how you feel your being picked on to those that aren't involved?
They don't even reply to it, which means they don't care.
They shouldn't because they don't want to be bothered with it.
I can't say I blame them.

Too bad "All Good Things.." takes place years after "Nemesis". ?If it still happens at all.

As for your post, your dislike of...Blah, blah, blah.
Your typical petty catty comments.
Do you snap your fingers too as you write this stuff? ?

Which brings us to you bringing up getting things slapped in your face. ¿Uh-Huh. Hmmm..
Did you read the OP's post?
He said he like "Fury" and asked for comment and opinions about it. ¿He/she didn't ask "What does Lynx, approve of?" or "What does Lynx & Lynx alone allow?" ¿ He/she asked EVERYONE.
Saying something repeatedly doesn't change anyone's mind.


My personal feelings about the character & actress doesn't negate that I know facts about the show in great detail and can take you to the mat on them in a fair debate.

Who are the "them" you're currently referring too? Are you the only one who can communicate with "them"?

The original poster wrote EVERYONE which means that even I have the right to comment on this, not only the "Kes hating club". Unfortunately there are posters who just have to attack the Kes fans and/or turn this into  a debate about me, not the episode.

Your dislike of the character and the actress are constantly repeated in every post which has the slightest to do with the character and so does also your creation of "evidence" for how bad/evil/sick/useless or whatever the character is in your eyes.

JOYOFVGR

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11594

Report this Apr. 28 2010, 1:26 pm

Quote (Lynx677 @ April 27 2010, 3:42 pm)
Quote (LoveofVGR @ April 26 2010, 1:16 pm)
I don't acknowledge fan fiction as canon either. I just threw it out there and I agree that as it stands, the Kes in Fury was ?the real Kes, sorry Lynx.

Of course that can always be undone, but honestly there would never be a need to un do it. It's not likely Lien would ever revise that character or that tptb would have a reason bring that character back, but you never know. In Trek anything is possible. (*shrugs*)

I also agree with the Alzheimers theory, and I think that was the writer's intention. I honestly just found that whole story to be weak though.

I barely remembered the events of Cold Fire, etc. that would have backed up that theory. It wasn't until we discussed it here that I even saw the connection, and I saw Voyager in syndication, so not that much time had passed between seasons. I would imagine that Fury seemed even more out of left field the first time around.

I refuse to accept that explanation because the creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance to the real Kes.

As for "The Alzheimer theory", it's standing on quicksand, based as it is on a very flawed and contradictional episode.

Not to mention that the poster who came up with it has many times stated his dislike of the character and her fans so I guess there is some malice involved as well.

I know you don't accept the Kes in Fury as the real Kes, Lynx, but as it stands right now, it is until canon says otherwise.

BTW, I'm LoveofVgr. I use that name to post from work.


Spoiler Alert:



Also, even though books are not canon, I do assume Janeway has died, until another book brings her back. Many argue that she is not dead because she went off with the female Q. But since Kirsten Beyer and Margaret Clark said she is dead, that's what I go with right now, even though I don't like it. It's hard to argue otherwise, imo. I believe the same goes for Kes.

I would like to think that it wasn't the real Kes. That whole episode never made any sense to me and would have made more sense if it wasn't Kes, but for now that's all we have.

Also, Teya once told me that in her mind there are many universes in Trek and there is room for everyone to be happy. In one universe, you have C/7, in another, J/C and D/7, perhaps in another K/7 or even J/7.

The same could be said for Kes. She could still be on the ship in one universe with her life extended, she could lived the average life span of an Ocampa, or she could have been the Kes in Fury.

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Apr. 28 2010, 3:10 pm

the one thing i've never understood from you lynx is that in your own "fury" (pun intended) you seen to be immune to certain facts as presented in the story. regardless of whether or not kes was suffering from an ocampan version of alzheimer disease or not the end of the story is what really matters. in a biblical sense, she was like a prodigal son (or if you like SW more, she's vader to janeway's luke in ROTJ :)). she left voyager to seek out her own path. she still felt lost when she returned to voyager until janeway was able to rescue her thus reminding kes of the sweet, caring person she was and still is. kes left voyager again to head home with the same characteristics that we knew she had for her three years on voyager. so even though she started out angry and lost, with the help of her friends she found herself again and returned home.

what is not more central to voyager's theme than this story?

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