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"Fury"

challengerdyer

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POSTS: 887

Report this Mar. 31 2010, 9:58 am

So, I watched "Fury" last night, and it was actually pretty good.  I have to admit it, I only ever saw it in 2000 when it was first run and I did not get it!  Now I get it.  The only thing is this:

At the end when old Kes is on the transporter pad, Neelix is looking at her and she basically asks, "What are you looking at?" Neelix says, "Just looking."  Kes responds, "What do you see?"  Neelix says, "Just you."

It's almost as if she's still holding a grudge against Neelix, but then as the beam takes her she looks at him and gives a little smile.  Huh?

So then her ship, which seems like the shuttle she left in with modifications, takes off for Ocompa.  I would assume that Janeway gave her all the information as to the dangers and possible shortcuts they had found???

I'd like to hear some opinions on this, especially from Kes fans who may have specific ideas about this episode.

grigori

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POSTS: 10463

Report this Apr. 02 2010, 6:40 pm

Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Apr. 02 2010, 6:44 pm

Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)
Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?

grigori, you hit the nail on the head. My biggest problem was Kes' motivation. It seemed like something traumatic happened to her after she left VGR, but what? Memory-alpha says it was old age and she forgot, but it's hard to swallow. The episode itself wasn't bad, but more motivation would helped.

Admiral_JTK

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POSTS: 4833

Report this Apr. 02 2010, 7:07 pm

Completely unnecessary filler episode, and waste of film and air time in re imagining a useless character that neither had or served any remotely qualifying or discernible purpose in the show since its inception.

ThankYouGeneR

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POSTS: 422

Report this Apr. 02 2010, 7:10 pm

Quote (challengerdyer @ Mar. 30 2010, 10:58 am)
So, I watched "Fury" last night, and it was actually pretty good. ¿I have to admit it, I only ever saw it in 2000 when it was first run and I did not get it! ¿Now I get it. ¿

I'd like to hear some opinions on this, especially from Kes fans who may have specific ideas about this episode.

Geeze. I'd like to hear from them too, or anyone for that matter, because this episode makes me grind my teeth. I would certainly like any new perspective to explore.

exodus201

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POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 11:18 am

Quote (Yanks @ April 02 2010, 10:16 am)
I just always thought this was a horrible episode.

"Old grouchy I have to kill everyone on Voyager" was WAY out of character for Kes.

Effects? Yeah, they were cool, but you can't convince me that Kes would turn on everyone she loved like that.

Just horrible.

..but that's not what it's about.

It's about Kes suffering from the Ocampian version of Alzhimers.

Remember "Before & After"?
Remember how at first everyone thought Kes was going through the Mor-Elogium and her daughter told us one of the signs was senility?
Remember what Kes told us about the Mor-Elogium from "Elogium".

Watch "Fury" again, watch Kes' actions.
She doesn't know what she's doing, she's suffering from dimentia. ¿She doesn't remember the crew as her friends.

There are clues all in the ep.
She can't remember Tom's name.
She doesn't remember how she left Voyager.
She doesn't clearly remember Janeway and she's see her friends as an enemy.
These are signs of someone suffering from senile dementia.

The hologram young Kes makes cements it, she tells old Kes "Do you remember me, the little girl you used to be? ¿This isn't you or what you're about. ¿Try and remember who you used to be. ¿Try and remember me."

Then Janeway asks Kes: Do you remember making that recording? ¿ Kes doesn't, she looks at Janeway and you can see on her face, she doesn't remember her either.

Suddenly Kes smiles & her first words are: "I remember now! ¿You told me to make it to help me...too help myself. ¿ All these years, there was so much pain and confusion(message!!!;) that I had forgotten(message #2!!!;)..."

The last scene with Neelix has it too.

Kes to Neelix: See anybody you remember?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now.)
Neelix: "Only you."

When she gets on the transporter pad before beaming out, she turns to Neelix and smiles. She just remembered who he was.

That's what Janeway's words about ":helping a lost friend find there way" was in referance to Kes' condition of Alzhimers.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 07 2010, 11:25 am

Quote (lostshaker @ April 02 2010, 6:44 pm)
Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)
Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?

grigori, you hit the nail on the head. My biggest problem was Kes' motivation. It seemed like something traumatic happened to her after she left VGR, but what? Memory-alpha says it was old age and she forgot, but it's hard to swallow. The episode itself wasn't bad, but more motivation would helped.

If you ever had to care or know of someone with Alzhimer's it's not hard to swallow at all. ?That's just they behave because their brain doesn't work properly anymore.


Many Kes fans IMO don't like this ep. because they never accepted that Kes was only going to live a short time and held onto the false hope that she would live longer. ?They also IMO believe growing old and dying is like what we used to see on "The Waltons" or "Little House on the Prairie". ¿Where old folks just sit happy on the porch all day and everyone dies in their sleep, when the truth is most people do die suffering like Kes or don't die exactly as heroes like Kirk. ¿So they never really accepted this aspect of the character, so they don't see why she has to get old or the results of it.  The whole purpose of the character of Kes was to watch a character grow up & die before our eyes.  Watching that was to make us not take our lives for granted.  IMO some Kes' fans rob us of that imporant life lesson.

Trek is at least trying to be real for once about what growing old and dying actually is like.

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 12:13 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 11:25 am)
Quote (lostshaker @ April 02 2010, 6:44 pm)
Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)
Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?

grigori, you hit the nail on the head. My biggest problem was Kes' motivation. It seemed like something traumatic happened to her after she left VGR, but what? Memory-alpha says it was old age and she forgot, but it's hard to swallow. The episode itself wasn't bad, but more motivation would helped.

If you ever had to care or know of someone with Alzhimer's it's not hard to swallow at all. ?That's just they behave because their brain doesn't work properly anymore.


Many Kes fans IMO don't like this ep. because they never accepted that Kes was only going to live a short time and held onto the false hope that she would live longer. ?They also IMO believe growing old and dying is like what we used to see on "The Waltons" or "Little House on the Prairie". ?Where old folks just sit happy on the porch all day and everyone dies in their sleep, when the truth is most people do die suffering like Kes or don't die exactly as heroes like Kirk. ?So they never really accepted this aspect of the character, so they don't see why she has to get old or the results of it. ?The whole purpose of the character of Kes was to watch a character grow up & die before our eyes. ?Watching that was to make us not take our lives for granted. ?IMO some Kes' fans rob us of that imporant life lesson.

Trek is at least trying to be real for once about what growing old and dying actually is like.

It was the vengeful nature of Kes that gave me problems, and the connection to Ocampian Alzheimer could have been done with more clarity. One would think that if younger Kes made a recording to her older self knowing that she'd have Ocampian Alzheimer she would also take further steps to curb her later behavior. I do agree with the rest of the post, however. I never minded a character with a short life span.

Quote
That all sounds good bud, but she remembered enough to find Voyager and plan this whole bit about selling the crew for food, operate every system on the ship, realize where her homeworld was know the enemies, etc, etc, etc... Oh, and sucking all the energy from the warp core was supposed to do what? ... make her just look young again?

I agree. Her memory of VGR's systems veered away from the Alzheimer notion.

The episode itself wasn't bad, I just would have liked either more motivation or more clarity to Ocampian Alzheimer.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 2:21 pm

Quote (Yanks @ April 07 2010, 11:43 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 11:18 am)
Quote (Yanks @ April 02 2010, 10:16 am)
I just always thought this was a horrible episode.

"Old grouchy I have to kill everyone on Voyager" was WAY out of character for Kes.

Effects? Yeah, they were cool, but you can't convince me that Kes would turn on everyone she loved like that.

Just horrible.

..but that's not what it's about.

It's about Kes suffering from the Ocampian version of Alzhimers.

Remember "Before & After"?
Remember how at first everyone thought Kes was going through the Mor-Elogium and her daughter told us one of the signs was senility?
Remember what Kes told us about the Mor-Elogium from "Elogium".

Watch "Fury" again, watch Kes' actions.
She doesn't know what she's doing, she's suffering from dimentia. ?She doesn't remember the crew as her friends.

There are clues all in the ep.
She can't remember Tom's name.
She doesn't remember how she left Voyager.
She doesn't clearly remember Janeway and she's see her friends as an enemy.
These are signs of someone suffering from senile dementia.

The hologram young Kes makes cements it, she tells old Kes "Do you remember me, the little girl you used to be? ?This isn't you or what you're about. ?Try and remember who you used to be. ?Try and remember me."

Then Janeway asks Kes: Do you remember making that recording? ? Kes doesn't, she looks at Janeway and you can see on her face, she doesn't remember her either.

Suddenly Kes smiles & her first words are: "I remember now! ?You told me to make it to help me...too help myself. ? All these years, there was so much pain and confusion(message!!!;) that I had forgotten(message #2!!!;)..."

The last scene with Neelix has it too.

Kes to Neelix: See anybody you remember?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now.)
Neelix: "Only you."

When she gets on the transporter pad before beaming out, she turns to Neelix and smiles. She just remembered who he was.

That's what Janeway's words about ":helping a lost friend find there way" was in referance to Kes' condition of Alzhimers.

That all sounds good bud, but she remembered enough to find Voyager and plan this whole bit about selling the crew for food, operate every system on the ship, realize where her homeworld was know the enemies, etc, etc, etc... Oh, and sucking all the energy from the warp core was supposed to do what? ... make her just look young again?

The Alzhimers excuse, while I know that's what they were going for doesn't cut it.

Then you don't know how Alzhimers works because that's just how it is. ?A person with the illness can recall certain info as clear as a bell, while other times none at all. ?That's why it's considered a form of dimentia because the victim of it has no rhyme or reason why they do what they do. ¿What Alzhimers is, is parts of the brain are starting to calcify and harden causing the brain not to recieve the proper electrical impulses, so their thoughts are jumbled. ¿Due to it their awareness changes from minute to minute, day to day, hour to hour and they don't understand something is wrong.

I lived with someone who had it for over 8 years and watched them deteriorate a day at a time. ?One minute they'd be friendly and know me, the next they thought I was a stranger breaking into their home. They'd get up in the middle of the night and try to leave the house to go visit friends that have been dead for 10 years. This illness look my Grandmothers life. ?Trust me, this is how Alzhimers is.

Sucking the energy from the warp core allowed her to time travel because the highest consentration of tacyon energy builds up there.  They said it clear as day in the episode.

exodus201

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Report this Apr. 07 2010, 2:33 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 11:25 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (lostshaker @ April 02 2010, 6:44 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)> id="QUOTE">Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (lostshaker @ April 07 2010, 12:13 pm)

grigori, you hit the nail on the head. My biggest problem was Kes' motivation. It seemed like something traumatic happened to her after she left VGR, but what? Memory-alpha says it was old age and she forgot, but it's hard to swallow. The episode itself wasn't bad, but more motivation would helped.

If you ever had to care or know of someone with Alzhimer's it's not hard to swallow at all. ?That's just they behave because their brain doesn't work properly anymore.


Many Kes fans IMO don't like this ep. because they never accepted that Kes was only going to live a short time and held onto the false hope that she would live longer. ?They also IMO believe growing old and dying is like what we used to see on "The Waltons" or "Little House on the Prairie". ?Where old folks just sit happy on the porch all day and everyone dies in their sleep, when the truth is most people do die suffering like Kes or don't die exactly as heroes like Kirk. ?So they never really accepted this aspect of the character, so they don't see why she has to get old or the results of it. ?The whole purpose of the character of Kes was to watch a character grow up & die before our eyes. ?Watching that was to make us not take our lives for granted. ?IMO some Kes' fans rob us of that imporant life lesson.

Trek is at least trying to be real for once about what growing old and dying actually is like.
It was the vengeful nature of Kes that gave me problems, and the connection to Ocampian Alzheimer could have been done with more clarity. One would think that if younger Kes made a recording to her older self knowing that she'd have Ocampian Alzheimer she would also take further steps to curb her later behavior. I do agree with the rest of the post, however. I never minded a character with a short life span.

;)

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 5:05 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (lostshaker @ April 07 2010, 12:13 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 11:25 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (lostshaker @ April 02 2010, 6:44 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)> id="QUOTE">Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (exodus201 @ April 07 2010, 2:33 pm)

grigori, you hit the nail on the head. My biggest problem was Kes' motivation. It seemed like something traumatic happened to her after she left VGR, but what? Memory-alpha says it was old age and she forgot, but it's hard to swallow. The episode itself wasn't bad, but more motivation would helped.
If you ever had to care or know of someone with Alzhimer's it's not hard to swallow at all. ?That's just they behave because their brain doesn't work properly anymore.


Many Kes fans IMO don't like this ep. because they never accepted that Kes was only going to live a short time and held onto the false hope that she would live longer. ?They also IMO believe growing old and dying is like what we used to see on "The Waltons" or "Little House on the Prairie". ?Where old folks just sit happy on the porch all day and everyone dies in their sleep, when the truth is most people do die suffering like Kes or don't die exactly as heroes like Kirk. ?So they never really accepted this aspect of the character, so they don't see why she has to get old or the results of it. ?The whole purpose of the character of Kes was to watch a character grow up & die before our eyes. ?Watching that was to make us not take our lives for granted. ?IMO some Kes' fans rob us of that imporant life lesson.

Trek is at least trying to be real for once about what growing old and dying actually is like.
It was the vengeful nature of Kes that gave me problems, and the connection to Ocampian Alzheimer could have been done with more clarity. One would think that if younger Kes made a recording to her older self knowing that she'd have Ocampian Alzheimer she would also take further steps to curb her later behavior. I do agree with the rest of the post, however. I never minded a character with a short life span.

;)
I am aware of the effects, the same as you described above. I merely state it could have been portrayed better.

teya1020

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POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 6:07 pm

Quote (Yanks @ April 02 2010, 6:45 pm)
Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)
Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?

The sad part is I think this episode was a result of the cast pleading with TPIC to give Jen some work. She had a kid out of wedlock, I believe there were drugs in her life...

*sigh*


Jen was married (and still is) when her son was born.

scnj

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POSTS: 130

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 6:13 pm

Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 7:29 pm

Quote (teya1020 @ April 07 2010, 6:07 pm)
Quote (Yanks @ April 02 2010, 6:45 pm)
Quote (grigori @ April 02 2010, 6:40 pm)
Maybe my least favorite Trek episode, too! I agree that upon subsequent viewings I saw a bit of what you saw, the smile at the end...But they needed to supply some more info on some serious bad thing happening to Kes to make her so bitter. Otherwise...doesn't convince. Hm. Bringing back Kes might otherwise have been a good idea, but how could this Kes--with all the powers she had even way back when she first left--have gotten into such a fix to begin with?

The sad part is I think this episode was a result of the cast pleading with TPIC to give Jen some work. She had a kid out of wedlock, I believe there were drugs in her life...

*sigh*


Jen was married (and still is) when her son was born.

to further teya's point, the story originally had kes being killed in the and upon ms. lien's request of asking kes not be killed the writer's changed the outcome. they obviously still respected her enough to honor her wishes.

teya1020

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POSTS: 2763

Report this Apr. 07 2010, 8:00 pm

Quote (scnj @ April 07 2010, 6:13 pm)
Horrible episode. A complete insult to the character. Manages to top even Threshold as Voyager's worst ever episode, simply because of how much it insulted the integrity of the character and fans of Kes.

So, it's Voyager's worst episode because it insults the integrity of a character and that character's fans.


Interesting.


There's an episode of Voyager that is racist twaddle which insults the integrity of an entire ethnic group.


Sorry if I consider that worse.

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