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Based strictly on the new movie tech who wins?

Tin_Man

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 1:15 pm

(Since this didn't get much attention on the Movie MB here it is)

In the J J verse the ships are bigger WAY bigger than prime timeline trek some might say it has more of a Star Wars edge to it...

So

Who wins the J J verse Federation PRIOR to the fleet being wrecked by Nero

OR

The Empire, 1 year PRIOR to the Rebel victory at the second Death star?

2 Fleets one outcome

what say you?


Oh and for setting sake:

Both sides are informed by Q about the other and given a general break down of each others ships and planets.

Ship wise nothing more than size and type of vessel.

Planet wise nothing more than location and function.

Then Q opens 3 indestructible gateways to each others universe. Spread evenly in each verse core, middle and out area's of each's territories.


Disclaimer: I hate the new trek by the way so other than reffing this debate I'm hands off :)

(Prime timeline all the way for me but I do really like Star Wars)

Anyway LET FLY! (Tin_Man heads for the armoured ref's box and awaits the onslaught :laugh:

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 4:16 pm

Does Star Wars get hyperspace routes to the Federation's holdings as well as each planet's physical location, or do they have to find their own? Because if they don't have routes, I'm not sure how long it would take them to survey new ones, and it might be that they'll never really get anywhere before their effective 1 year time limit is up...

Also... do we actually have any hard data on JJ-Trek universe ships, other than size and the assumption they'll be very vaguely similar to prime timeline ones?

And finally (just to be uber nerdy :D ) - could you say where on this map the three gateways are placed?

tribblenator999

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 8:04 pm

guys JJ trek would totally pwn the empire. I mean warp cores that can destroy black holes? federation refines that kind of tech to weaponry and empire is totally screwed.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 8:37 pm

I was under the impression the warp core explosion simply created some sort of technobabble shockwave which pushed the ship fully out of the red matter vortex's area of effect, rather than actually destroying the vortex itself?

chr3335

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 10:18 pm

Empire still even if the ships are closer in terms of fire power the Empire still has the numerical advantage.

tribblenator999

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 10:45 pm

the black hole was destroyed because the shockwave engulfed the black hole itself. which is awesome.

tribblenator999

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Report this Mar. 02 2010, 10:47 pm

Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 02 2010, 10:18 pm)
Empire still even if the ships are closer in terms of fire power the Empire still has the numerical advantage.

Doesnt' starfleet still have thousands of ships that can travel at insane speeds and pack weapons powerful enough to lay waste to planets. (the enterprise can go from earth to vulcan in 3 minutes!!!;)

chr3335

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Report this Mar. 03 2010, 8:59 am

Quote (tribblenator999 @ Mar. 01 2010, 11:47 pm)
Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 02 2010, 10:18 pm)
Empire still even if the ships are closer in terms of fire power the Empire still has the numerical advantage.

Doesnt' starfleet still have thousands of ships that can travel at insane speeds and pack weapons powerful enough to lay waste to planets. (the enterprise can go from earth to vulcan in 3 minutes!!!;)

The number of ships in Return of the Jedi just in Death star defense fleet out numbers the federation in the new movies.  If I remember the numbers right there were 40 star destroyers plus the Executor the standard ISD can carry 6 squadrons of 12 fighters so 12*6*40= 2880 fighter craft that is more ships than the entire federation fielded in the dominion war and that is just the fighters of a small fleet the Executor adds another 144 fighters to the mix to give the Death star fleet a grand total of 3065 ships.  Now since star fleet regularly adds in fighters in its fleet numbers star still wins the numbers game.

We get from the asteroid scene in TESB a minimum of 6 MT for the point defense guns of a star destroyer so even if we ignore the ICS wars still has a fire power advantage.

chr3335

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Report this Mar. 03 2010, 9:03 am

Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 9:53 am)
Just have spock shoot some redmatter at the wars ships.

Actually the red matter didn't seem that effective as an anti-ship weapon.  If we take the scene were all of the red matter aboard Spock-prime's ship converts a black hole it is still a small black hole and it didn't seem to be doing much damage to Nero's ship even though IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAM THING.

Quote
the black hole was destroyed because the shockwave engulfed the black hole itself. which is awesome.
 I think the black holes are only temporary seeing as the one on Vulcan didn't kill Spock who was able to watch it eat the plant.

chr3335

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Report this Mar. 03 2010, 10:00 am

Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 10:07 am)
Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 03 2010, 9:03 am)
Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 9:53 am)
Just have spock shoot some redmatter at the wars ships.

Actually the red matter didn't seem that effective as an anti-ship weapon. ?If we take the scene were all of the red matter aboard Spock-prime's ship converts a black hole it is still a small black hole and it didn't seem to be doing much damage to Nero's ship even though IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAM THING.

Quote
the black hole was destroyed because the shockwave engulfed the black hole itself. which is awesome.
?I think the black holes are only temporary seeing as the one on Vulcan didn't kill Spock who was able to watch it eat the plant.

It was pulling neros ship in and would undoubtedly have destroyed it.

This is true but it took THE ENTIRE SUPPLY OF RED MATTER and it didn't make a much larger or more powerful black hole than the single small drop of it.  And Nero's ship really wasn't breaking up all in fact Nero's ship was only destroyed after the Enterprise opened fire on it.

Tin_Man

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Report this Mar. 03 2010, 11:55 am

Quote (Vorta_the_point @ Mar. 01 2010, 5:16 pm)
Does Star Wars get hyperspace routes to the Federation's holdings as well as each planet's physical location, or do they have to find their own? Because if they don't have routes, I'm not sure how long it would take them to survey new ones, and it might be that they'll never really get anywhere before their effective 1 year time limit is up...

Also... do we actually have any hard data on JJ-Trek universe ships, other than size and the assumption they'll be very vaguely similar to prime timeline ones?

And finally (just to be uber nerdy :D ) - could you say where on this map the three gateways are placed?

Location would include all the pertinent info to make it even for both sides when it comes to navigation.

Tin_Man

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POSTS: 4479

Report this Mar. 03 2010, 11:58 am

Since both sides use glass windows on their bridges, I would guess that if either side infiltrated the others window washer union they could effectively blind the command sections of the opponent at key points in battle.

:laugh:

tribblenator999

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Report this Mar. 03 2010, 7:56 pm

Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 03 2010, 10:00 am)
Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 10:07 am)
Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 03 2010, 9:03 am)
Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 9:53 am)
Just have spock shoot some redmatter at the wars ships.

Actually the red matter didn't seem that effective as an anti-ship weapon. ?If we take the scene were all of the red matter aboard Spock-prime's ship converts a black hole it is still a small black hole and it didn't seem to be doing much damage to Nero's ship even though IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAM THING.

Quote
the black hole was destroyed because the shockwave engulfed the black hole itself. which is awesome.
?I think the black holes are only temporary seeing as the one on Vulcan didn't kill Spock who was able to watch it eat the plant.

It was pulling neros ship in and would undoubtedly have destroyed it.

This is true but it took THE ENTIRE SUPPLY OF RED MATTER and it didn't make a much larger or more powerful black hole than the single small drop of it. ¿And Nero's ship really wasn't breaking up all in fact Nero's ship was only destroyed after the Enterprise opened fire on it.

it was a massive black hole and nero's ship was breaking apart while the enterprise was firing at it.

chr3335

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POSTS: 7914

Report this Mar. 04 2010, 1:47 pm

Quote (tribblenator999 @ Mar. 02 2010, 8:56 pm)
Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 03 2010, 10:00 am)
Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 10:07 am)
Quote (chr3335 @ Mar. 03 2010, 9:03 am)
Quote (Stinkoman @ Mar. 02 2010, 9:53 am)
Just have spock shoot some redmatter at the wars ships.

Actually the red matter didn't seem that effective as an anti-ship weapon. ?If we take the scene were all of the red matter aboard Spock-prime's ship converts a black hole it is still a small black hole and it didn't seem to be doing much damage to Nero's ship even though IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAM THING.

Quote
the black hole was destroyed because the shockwave engulfed the black hole itself. which is awesome.
?I think the black holes are only temporary seeing as the one on Vulcan didn't kill Spock who was able to watch it eat the plant.

It was pulling neros ship in and would undoubtedly have destroyed it.

This is true but it took THE ENTIRE SUPPLY OF RED MATTER and it didn't make a much larger or more powerful black hole than the single small drop of it. ?And Nero's ship really wasn't breaking up all in fact Nero's ship was only destroyed after the Enterprise opened fire on it.

it was a massive black hole and nero's ship was breaking apart while the enterprise was firing at it.

Yes but was it due to the black hole, the weapons fire, or a combination of the two.  When we compare to the destruction of Vulcan to what happened to Nero's ship it is an amazing difference.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Mar. 05 2010, 6:10 pm

The problem is, the Federation doesn't actually have any Red Matter yet; Nero's got the only current supply, which is itself from an alternate future. It is also apparently extremely rare, which is presumably why it's never actually used as a weapon.

With hyperspace routes to the Federation's planets, I believe the Empire would be able to win this scenario using a single Star Destroyer. If we are using all available canonical Star Wars material, then I don't believe the Federation has weapons powerful enough to penetrate the Star Destroyer's shields in any appreciable timeframe; conversely the Star Destroyer's 200GT heavy turbolasers (combined with the numerous lesser guns) would be able to destroy Federation starships with comparative ease. There shouldn't be any reason the Star Destroyer cannot simply park itself over Earth, destroy any incoming vessels and order the Federation to surrender or have Earth receive a Base Delta Zero operation.

If we're going just by evidence from the movies alone, then we're not shown how powerful the heavy guns are - however, the light turbolasers I believe are calculated to have a minimum yield of 6MT, while Jango Fett's seismic charges are around 200MT; the heavy cannons of a dedicated warship should be significantly more powerful than these (indeed, a figure higher than the figures in the ICS can actually be reached if you scale down the power output of the Death Star to a Star Destroyer size).

Even if we were to assume that the heavy turbolasers are only twice as powerful as Jango Fett's seismic charges (which would be a bit odd, considering seismic charges are small starship weapons accessible to a Bounty Hunter...) that's 400MT per shot. I believe that the Star Trek TNG Technical Manual suggests that photon torpedoes have a maximum theoretical yield of 64MT; since this energy would be released in all directions (like Fett's seismic charges), in reality about half this energy, 32MT, would actually be affecting the target (assuming the reaction between matter and anti-matter within them is 100% efficient; in reality this never happens, and indeed the DS9 Technical Manual suggests a 74% efficiency rate).

The old Clone Wars Acclamator-class Assault Ship had 24 light turbolasers and 12 heavy turbolasers; assuming the above 6MT and 400MT yields for these weapons, that would mean that the combined power of each of its weapon systems firing once would be 5,000MT - the equivalent of about 155 maximum yield photon torpedoes. And this is only with each of the weapon systems firing once; how fast do we see them firing in the films?

Bear in mind also that these figures are for an Acclamator-class Assault Ship (which was used as a troop transport in the Clone Wars); an Imperial Star Destroyer is around ten times bigger and possesses a correspondingly larger selection of guns.

On top of all of this, there's the advantage of hyperspace travel; while it would have taken Voyager 70 years to cross the galaxy, with the right hyperspace routes those distances are same day travel in the Star Wars galaxy. Even if the Star Destroyer was able (despite the evidence above) to be destroyed by the massed firepower of the Federation fleet, it can simply inflict minimal damage to whatever planet it starts off at before making - as soon as the Federation fleet turns up to oppose it - a hyperspace jump to a major planet at the other end of the Federation, and be happily pounding that planet unmolested during the time it takes the Federation fleet to warp across the whole of Federation territory to catch up with it - and as soon as they appear to engage it, it can just jump again to another planet at the other end of the Federation, repeat the process, and threaten to continue to do this until the Federation surrenders. If they want to counter this, the Federation will have to spread its ships out to cover each of its planets rather than being able to form them into one big fleet, making it easier for the Star Destroyer to defeat them piecemeal.

Unless the JJ-Trek universe is somehow many, many orders of magnitude more powerful than the 24th century prime universe, then I would argue that Star Wars will win this scenario whether we use a films only Star Wars continuity or an all materials Star Wars continuity.


Quote (Tin_Man @ Mar. 03 2010, 4:58 pm)
Since both sides use glass windows on their bridges, I would guess that if either side infiltrated the others window washer union they could effectively blind the command sections of the opponent at key points in battle.

:laugh:


You, sir, win this thread. :D

I have this mental image of Keenser suddenly bungeeing down Wallace and Gromit style to soap up the Star Destroyer bridge windows at a critical moment in battle... :laugh:

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