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Worst Episode ever...

TheDayWalker

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Report this Feb. 23 2010, 9:01 pm

I'm watching the episode of Voyager where they experiment with trans-warp drive and Tom travels at warp 10 and begins to evolve, but in the original series " The Changeling " Nomad upgrades the enterprise allowing it to travel at warp 15 and the crew doesn't change or has any nasty after effects...  Another thing I noticed is in one of the movies { I think it was Generations } Kirk states that the new ship is rumored to have trans-warp drive yet in The Next Generation wich takes place 85 years later they still can't go past warp 9...

1: So did the writters of that episode of Voyager not do their homework or what?

2: What's up with the ship in " Generations " having trans-warp drive and all future fedy ships not able to go past warp 9?

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 23 2010, 10:34 pm

First, yes - Threshold was by far the worst hour of television ever.  Nothing else even comes close.

Second, it was The Search For Spock where Excelsior has transwarp, but the experiment is a failure and for whatever reason, no one was ever able to get that close again.

out_of_this_world

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 5:39 am

I dont mean to sound out of place here, but I really like Threshold, its a comedy classic, yeah the science is poor and confusing and the storyline gets out of hand but still it is one of my faves from season 2!

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 6:27 am

Quote (out_of_this_world @ Feb. 23 2010, 8:39 am)
I dont mean to sound out of place here, but I really like Threshold, its a comedy classic, yeah the science is poor and confusing and the storyline gets out of hand but still it is one of my faves from season 2!

Nah, it's not even worth the comedy.  

Spock's Brain is funny and a great watch when taking it that way.  Threshold is devoid of all enjoyment.  Usually something so terrible can give you some sick satisfaction, but this is so insanely awful that you can't even get that.  It's just a complete waste of time.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 6:30 am

Quote (ServalanFan @ Feb. 23 2010, 8:32 am)
I don't think it was only in VOY they said they couldn't go over Warp 10. I think they also said it in TNG. Apparently no-one had seen the Original Series except for those episodes they copied - The Naked Time etc.
One of the fan explanations for the fact that the original Enterprise in TOS did go over Warp 10 every so often was that they changed the scale during TNG/VOY/DS9.
So maybe Kirk's Warp 10 was equivalent to Picard's Warp 7 say.
Would have been nice to have someone say the scale has changed in the last 100 years or something like that in one of the episodes. Oh well I think it is only a fanboy explanation. I wonder where that puts the warp scale on ENT?

IMO 'Threshold' was one of the worst episodes of VOY but I think there are a lot worse in Star Trek. TNGs 'Sub Rosa' comes to mind.

It's a lot more than a fanboi notion, Gene Roddenberry specificly ordered that warp ten be the limit for TNG so that the Eneterprise wouldn't be threatened by ever-increasing warp factors like in TOS.  Therefore the scale was revamped from the nice, logical TOS scale to the confusing and complicated TNG scale.  

The problem is, in recent years adding more digits to warp nine is getting ridiculous - Far moreso than those ever-increasing speeds from TOS.  Therefore a new series is going to need to revamp it again.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 11:35 am

Quote (ServalanFan @ Feb. 23 2010, 10:12 am)
Quote (SLagonia @ Feb. 24 2010, 6:30 am)
Quote (ServalanFan @ Feb. 23 2010, 8:32 am)
I don't think it was only in VOY they said they couldn't go over Warp 10. I think they also said it in TNG. Apparently no-one had seen the Original Series except for those episodes they copied - The Naked Time etc.
One of the fan explanations for the fact that the original Enterprise in TOS did go over Warp 10 every so often was that they changed the scale during TNG/VOY/DS9.
So maybe Kirk's Warp 10 was equivalent to Picard's Warp 7 say.
Would have been nice to have someone say the scale has changed in the last 100 years or something like that in one of the episodes. Oh well I think it is only a fanboy explanation. I wonder where that puts the warp scale on ENT?

IMO 'Threshold' was one of the worst episodes of VOY but I think there are a lot worse in Star Trek. TNGs 'Sub Rosa' comes to mind.

It's a lot more than a fanboi notion, Gene Roddenberry specificly ordered that warp ten be the limit for TNG so that the Eneterprise wouldn't be threatened by ever-increasing warp factors like in TOS. ?Therefore the scale was revamped from the nice, logical TOS scale to the confusing and complicated TNG scale. ?

The problem is, in recent years adding more digits to warp nine is getting ridiculous - Far moreso than those ever-increasing speeds from TOS. ?Therefore a new series is going to need to revamp it again.

Was that idea ever canonised on screen? Did they state we've redone the scale? Or did they ignore what happened in TOS and say nobody cares what happened in TOS anymore, lets do what we want.
If that was the case then the new movie has every right to rewrite history as it is the new Star Trek.

Well, what warp factors meant was canonized in each series, and they were different things.  It was never specificly stated (to my knowledge) that the scale changed, but seeing the two scales means that it's pretty obvious.

When it comes to canon, we need to remember that not everything needs to be explicitly stated.  In this case we have two different scales a hundred years apart.  It's obvious that at some point (maybe after the transwarp experiments on Excelsior, or maybe with the new geometry in the years preceeding The Galaxy Class) that scale was changed.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 11:37 am

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 23 2010, 2:17 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Feb. 23 2010, 10:34 pm)
First, yes - Threshold was by far the worst hour of television ever. ?Nothing else even comes close.

Second, it was The Search For Spock where Excelsior has transwarp, but the experiment is a failure and for whatever reason, no one was ever able to get that close again.

Yes, but doesn't one of the ships in "All Good Things" go warp 13 or something?

It makes sense - Going to ever-increasing decimals of nine is really annoying.  As engines improved, they likely revamped the scale again.  The scale in Cardinal sets the upper-limit at 15, with most ships hitting 12.5 or 13 (Cardinal is 13.5, as are the massive Patriot class ships).

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 12:12 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 23 2010, 2:52 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Feb. 24 2010, 11:37 am)
Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 23 2010, 2:17 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Feb. 23 2010, 10:34 pm)
First, yes - Threshold was by far the worst hour of television ever. ?Nothing else even comes close.

Second, it was The Search For Spock where Excelsior has transwarp, but the experiment is a failure and for whatever reason, no one was ever able to get that close again.

Yes, but doesn't one of the ships in "All Good Things" go warp 13 or something?

It makes sense - Going to ever-increasing decimals of nine is really annoying. ?As engines improved, they likely revamped the scale again. ?The scale in Cardinal sets the upper-limit at 15, with most ships hitting 12.5 or 13 (Cardinal is 13.5, as are the massive Patriot class ships).

So you change the numbers so you can get faster "but" there still is a limit? So how did the Engines improve?

sounds like KPH and MPH...

It's not that.

See, going from nine to ten isn't like going from one to two - The gap increases as the factors increase.  Ten is a limit, not another factor.  It's not a matter of just hitting another warp factor, it's hitting the speed the factor represents, which is infinate.  Therefore, over the course of Voyager, we just kept seeing things going from warp 9 to 9.5 to 9.9 to 9.95 to 9.99 to warp 9.995 etc.  It's annoying.

Therefore, the new scale recalibrates it from the bottom up, making infinate speed factor fifteen, not ten, and adding more numbers with which to represent the speeds in between.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 12:42 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 23 2010, 3:39 pm)
From Memory Alpha:

"Rather than "faster than infinite", these alternative future warp factors seemed to also point to extraordinarily fast speeds."

:laugh:

What I just said only less detailed.

TheDriver

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 6:51 pm

You know what else I find annoying?

That one TNG episode (I forget the title) in which the Enterprise-D crew discovers NO ONE must ever go faster than Warp 5 for fear of ripping the universe a new subspace @$$hole.

God, that was stupid. And obviously retconned and/or forgotten throughout the course of TNG, DS9, and VOY.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 6:52 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 23 2010, 4:23 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Feb. 24 2010, 12:42 pm)
Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 23 2010, 3:39 pm)
From Memory Alpha:

"Rather than "faster than infinite", these alternative future warp factors seemed to also point to extraordinarily fast speeds."

:laugh:

What I just said only less detailed.

Just a cop-out to "oops, according to the warp factor scale we can't go that fast"

Your "scale" will be no different, it will last a couple years then someone will go 14.995 and we'll be right back where we started.

Probably, or we'll come up with a new propulsion system.  Either way, it delays the problem and keeps things familiar.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 6:54 pm

Quote (TheDriver @ Feb. 23 2010, 9:51 pm)
You know what else I find annoying?

That one TNG episode (I forget the title) in which the Enterprise-D crew discovers NO ONE must ever go faster than Warp 5 for fear of ripping the universe a new subspace @$$hole.

God, that was stupid. And obviously retconned and/or forgotten throughout the course of TNG, DS9, and VOY.

Apparently that's what those folding nacels were all about...  Which makes no sense considering they're always in one of two positions, and only one of them actually flies at warp.  I see no reason why that would do anything, but whatever, at least they paid it lip service.

subytrek

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 6:59 pm

The warp limit should be based on the energy output of the engines not some weird backwards evolution happening to you once you reach warp 10. Cars only have a limit to how fast they can go due to the energy of their engines not because of some weird evolution barrier. The same thing should apply to starships. :logical:

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 7:31 pm

Quote (subytrek @ Feb. 23 2010, 9:59 pm)
The warp limit should be based on the energy output of the engines not some weird backwards evolution happening to you once you reach warp 10. Cars only have a limit to how fast they can go due to the energy of their engines not because of some weird evolution barrier. The same thing should apply to starships. :logical:

You see, the problem is that there is no 'warp ten threshold' the way we saw in Threshold.  You accelerate up to warp ten, but you never reach it.  Remember that the difference between warp 9.9 and warp 9.91 is far greater than warp one and two.  

That seems to be the problem Braga had with Threshold - He seemed to think that all it took to get to warp ten was just get a bigger engine.  Basicly what Threshold is saying is that if I get the right fuel mixture in my car, I can drive to infinity, which is just stupid.  Infinity is impossible, mainly because it's not a real number, but rather a mathmatical construct.  It's one thing if you find a way to go really fast and another to go infinately fast.

subytrek

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Report this Feb. 24 2010, 7:57 pm

Exactly. :logical:

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