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Borg Discrepency

Vold

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 1:07 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 26 2010, 11:34 pm)
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Either way its going against both TNG & Voy Borg behavior.
They don't hide anything, intentionally under normal circumstances.


We dont know that.

As I said, Datas inability to count them could have been the result of them trying to hide a thing or 2.

And they did try to hide things from Voyager.

The fact that they started the fight with 8472, the existence of Unimatrix 0 [that dream world if I got the wrong name]

I was wondering when ur going to say that. :)

There's a difference with hiding & not saying what's not required.

The Borg don't make small talk, but they'll answer when being questioned. None of the Voy crew ever asked them who started the war. They all just assumed 8472 did.

Since there was no question, there's no need to say anything. Had they asked, the Borg will tell.

It's that old lesson even shown in the Matrix movie. Where Neo didn't ask the proper question, hence deciding on his own path oblivious to the truth. The Oracle isn't hiding anything either.

Anything can be learned from the Borg had they got the time to ask:
3of5 complied to everything Geordi ask of him
so did 7of9 before & after the 8472 war ended.
Geordi ask for his eye, 3of5 plucks it out, ask how something works, he explains, etc.

On occasions 7 don't bother explaining not because its a secret, but because she don't believe they are capable of understanding it. Like a parent can't explain to a kid why you don't pull the trigger of a gun pointing at ur own head to a kid without showing an example.

All data in the Collective is free for the taking, should anyone dare to board a Borg vessel & understand how to download the data and escape in time before their stay is no longer welcome.

These are the behavior of the Borg, they are straight forward, & truthful to the letter.
Very literal folks, that is why when dealing with them, they should choose their words carefully.

Deception is not their way.
7of9: "You would deny us the choice as you deny us now. You have imprisoned us in the name of humanity yet you will not grant us your most cherished human right. To choose our own fate. You are hypocritical, manipulative. We do not want to be what you are! Return us to the Collective!"

That shows that manipulation is not the Borg's way.

7of9: "We will betray you."
but untill then, anything the crew needs & relevant, she will comply.

7of9: "Captain. I am unaccustomed to deception. Among the Borg it was impossible. There were no lies, no secrets, and I assure you I had nothing to do with the accident in Engineering."

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Borg vessels (Cubes, Probe, Spheres, etc.) other than "Q Who"
Uni-Complex "Dark Frontier"[/qoute]

Cant compair.
The Federation made advancements in that time.
That could account for the ability to count their numbers.


That's where you're wrong, they are capable of hiding themselves even during Voyager's time. As shown in "Collective"
Where a Cube hid from the away team before they saw it with their own eyes.

They are more than capable of, they just don't.
Just like the Drones don't use their range weapons.

It's all a matter of protocol of when to do so. Which is only reserved at very high threat level. Species 8472 is such an example, that is when Drones start using range weapons.

First encounter is the lowest threat level, hence hiding is totally out of the question.

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Quote
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[quote]Fourth, the Cube the Hensens encountered look like the one in ST:FC, hence 10 yrs prior to "Q Who" they are already advanced, hence the probability of a less advanced Cube is illogical for the Borg.


This is true.
But can be explained a few ways.

One would be like I said....they dont evolve/advance simultaneously everywhere at once.

Or can be explained how Kirks Enterprise can still be more advanced then Archers even thou the "looks" indicate otherwise.

- They do advance simultaneously, it is already proven they can contact Drones across the galaxy within seconds, hence all data will be provide as soon as they have confirmed the data is clean.

- Those are 2 totally different class of ships, A Cube is a Cube, a NX Class is not a Constitution Class.
If we're comparing a Cube to a Tactical Cube, than you are correct, but this is not the case.


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Irrelevant, future fact states Betazoids can't read minds or sense emotions, so either way, there's a change non-theless.


"Future fact"????

Whats that??

None of the info you posted before said that Betazoids , or anyone else, sence the emotions of Fergie.

So untill you can back that up your claim doesnt have a leg to stand on.

Here's 3 examples, 2 from TNG itself.

TNG "M¿nage A Troi"
Grax: "They made a profit and behaved themselves. What more could one ask? Still, they trouble me. We Betazeds are uncomfortable with species like the Ferengi whose minds we can't read."
Data: "Perhaps your telepathic abilities are ineffective owing to the anomalous construction of the Ferengi brain, which is composed of four different."

TNG "The Loss"
Data: "Indeed, there are many races that are not empathically detectable. The Breen, the Ferengi, the..."

DS9 "The Forsaken"
Lwaxana: "No, but Betazoids cannot read Ferengis."

Vold

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 1:08 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 26 2010, 11:36 pm)
Quote (Vold @ Feb. 26 2010, 11:03 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 26 2010, 8:34 pm)
Quote (Vold @ Feb. 26 2010, 8:24 pm)
Quote (captbates @ Feb. 26 2010, 8:21 pm)
Quote (Vold @ Feb. 26 2010, 1:19 am)
That's not me
:)

Lol, I'm sure he'll notice the mistake sooner or later. ?;)
:laugh:

Nah, he'll just say that's not a mistake,

its a change or something. (adapted / upgrade / whatever)
:D

Follow.

You made a post about the Betazoids......I replied.

You then skipped over my reply to answer someones elses post that was after my reply.

So I thought you missed my reply.

So when I wass done replying to "captbates" on his post I then typed your name......to get your attention,,,,and asked you if you missed my post.

I don't get it, I don't recognise that name. That's why I asked who are you talking to.

Did I miss spell your name???

Don't know, can't tell who ur trying to spell.
;)

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 2:30 am

Quote (Vold @ Feb. 27 2010, 1:07 am)
I was wondering when ur going to say that. :)

There's a difference with hiding & not saying what's not required.

Hardly.

And even in that the Borg tried to hide the fact thatb they planned to double cross Voyager as soon as the crisis was over.

Granted I'm sure Janeway knew they would try it but it doesnt change the fact that they lied, cheated and hid their true agenda deliberately.

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Torres: "What about these linkages. Every time I pull one out another one comes back in it's place."
7of9: "Autonomous regeneration sequencers. They function to counteract resistance."
Kim: "Amazing. How did you come up with the pattern duplication design?"

Than there are automated units that conducts repairs as well, not sure if they function when there are Drones still functioning but there was one found functioning on a derelict ship.


Thanks for that.

But I really dont see how that changed what Data suggested.

Maybe the automated systems work in junction with linked Drones but are capable of some system repairs on their own.

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What do u mean could not have cut off Hugh's ship?


When Hugh returned to his ship his individuality started to spread to the others on his ship.

The Collective then cut Huges ship off as to not spred the problem to every Borg everywhere.

But if it was as you say...that the Borg improve simultaneously across the galaxy, then Huges individuality would have spread simultaneously across the galaxy to every Borg.

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- Those are 2 totally different class of ships, A Cube is a Cube, a NX Class is not a Constitution Class.
If we're comparing a Cube to a Tactical Cube, than you are correct, but this is not the case.


Which does not negate the possibility that the Borg didnt have different looking interiors over the years.




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Here's 3 examples, 2 from TNG itself.


You only provided 1 example that answers my question.
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TNG "The Loss"
Data: "Indeed, there are many races that are not empathically detectable. The Breen, the Ferengi, the..."


This is an example and thous proves your claim.
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DS9 "The Forsaken"
Lwaxana: "No, but Betazoids cannot read Ferengis."


Again not an example.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 2:36 am

Quote (Vold @ Feb. 27 2010, 1:08 am)
Don't know, can't tell who ur trying to spell.
;)

This is what I said [its an exact quote but I'm putting your name in bold letters]

Actually we dont know what agency is really incharge of ship building.

But we have seen shuttles and other ships at the imploy of civilian organizations.

So who built the ship doesnt really matter.

"VOID".....did you miss my reply???


Now like I said....the first part of that post was not directed at you.

But the part that was a question was.

Did I spell your name incorrectly???

Vold

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 3:41 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 27 2010, 2:30 am)
And even in that the Borg tried to hide the fact thatb they planned to double cross Voyager as soon as the crisis was over.

Granted I'm sure Janeway knew they would try it but it doesnt change the fact that they lied, cheated and hid their true agenda deliberately.

That's not a double cross, they are true to their word.

They are only allies so long as 8472 is still a threat & will provide them safe passage, the moment they're gone the contract is done. Plain & simple, not a double cross.

The only reason allies of a war continue to be allies, because they made new threaties for a post-war relationship. Surely you don't think the governments didn't do anything else after the war.

There's no such deal here with the Borg. Hence they have no obligation to the Starship Voyager anymore.
This is not the first time I've seen such things.

Every time there's a deal being completed between opposing forces, they turn their guns at each other until their leaders tell them what's next. Do we spare them & meet in the battlefield again or end it there & then.

Hence they didn't lie, cheat or hid anything.

Humans as the Borg put it, are small minded, primitives, to comprehand such things. That is why we separate ourselves to different factions to focus on, let the governments handle their part, while militaries do their part, citizens, leaders, followers, etc.

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Thanks for that.

But I really dont see how that changed what Data suggested.

Maybe the automated systems work in junction with linked Drones but are capable of some system repairs on their own.

That negates the term "Autonomous"
These things work despite of Drones.

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When Hugh returned to his ship his individuality started to spread to the others on his ship.

The Collective then cut Huges ship off as to not spred the problem to every Borg everywhere.

But if it was as you say...that the Borg improve simultaneously across the galaxy, then Huges individuality would have spread simultaneously across the galaxy to every Borg.

Figured as much.

I said they simutaneously improve yes, but not imediately. They got protocols to follow, steps to take.
Most importantly to make sure the new data learn is safe or not to distribute across the Collective.

Like a firewall. If its not safe, do not transfer anything & disconnect that vessel from the Collective.

An example of such delay is in "Unimatrix Zero"
When the Tactical Cube was attacked, the Queen did not know about it imediately, the Uni-Complex was informed shortly later after being engaged.

They know the risk of simply downloading everything they see. They won't make mistakes like MSN users, who keep clicking on anonymous links again & again, never learning their first mistake.

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Which does not negate the possibility that the Borg didnt have different looking interiors over the years.

Borg Interiors (Walkways, etc.) are all the same, despite the class
Hull/foundation formation on the other hand differs due to the shape of the vessel.

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This referes to telepathic reading which as I told you is not the same as empathic reading.

They're talking in general, all ways telepathic.
If they can sense emotions, there's no need to complain. As its just as good to tell the truth or at least know when something is off out of the Ferengis.

So what they're saying is, they can't sense anything, not words or emotions, nothing, zip, na na.
That was not a scientific conversation, no need to be specific, ?nor are they machines or Vulcans.

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Again not an example.

Yes it is, as she's talking in general again.

If we see it your way, than she should be able to find out who stole her property. Emotions is more than enough to give out a lie, that's how Deanna Troi does it all the time with only emotions to read.

So they are all examples that they can't use their biological capability against a Ferengi.

Vold

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 3:59 am

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 27 2010, 2:36 am)
Quote (Vold @ Feb. 27 2010, 1:08 am)
Don't know, can't tell who ur trying to spell.
;)

This is what I said [its an exact quote but I'm putting your name in bold letters]

Actually we dont know what agency is really incharge of ship building.

But we have seen shuttles and other ships at the imploy of civilian organizations.

So who built the ship doesnt really matter.

"VOID".....did you miss my reply???


Now like I said....the first part of that post was not directed at you.

But the part that was a question was.

Did I spell your name incorrectly???

What do you think?

Look at the situation that brought us here & what we said till now.
:)

No subspace field jamming us.
:D

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 3:06 pm

Quote (Vold @ Feb. 27 2010, 3:41 am)
That's not a double cross, they are true to their word.

They are only allies so long as 8472 is still a threat & will provide them safe passage, the moment they're gone the contract is done. Plain & simple, not a double cross.

Semantics.

No matter what type of spin you try to put their actions in they still hid part of their agenda and plans.

Maybe no one asked them about it but they didnt volunteer it either.

And thats hiding.

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That negates the term "Autonomous"
These things work despite of Drones.


And may not be responceble for all repairs.

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Figured as much.

I said they simutaneously improve yes, but not imediately. They got protocols to follow, steps to take.
Most importantly to make sure the new data learn is safe or not to distribute across the Collective.

Like a firewall. If its not safe, do not transfer anything & disconnect that vessel from the Collective.

An example of such delay is in "Unimatrix Zero"
When the Tactical Cube was attacked, the Queen did not know about it imediately, the Uni-Complex was informed shortly later after being engaged.

They know the risk of simply downloading everything they see. They won't make mistakes like MSN users, who keep clicking on anonymous links again & again, never learning their first mistake.


And whos to say how long all that can take in every case.

It is possible that one ship could have advancements that an other does not.

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Borg Interiors (Walkways, etc.) are all the same, despite the class
Hull/foundation formation on the other hand differs due to the shape of the vessel.


Not exactly right.

The interior of the ship of J25 did look a bit different then later ships.

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Which they did but you refuse to accept it. Which are


Because you havent been able to prove it with out a doubt.

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- Alcolves are singular not pairs


A change in the ships design over a few years does not constitute a change in history.

Maybe the double alcoves was one of those things that were determined to be unsafe after some time.

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- Maturation Chambers are liquid chambers not blankets


Again I see no blanks.

That was just a cheep looking effect.
Quote

They're talking in general, all ways telepathic.
If they can sense emotions, there's no need to complain. As its just as good to tell the truth or at least know when something is off out of the Ferengis.

So what they're saying is, they can't sense anything, not words or emotions, nothing, zip, na na.
That was not a scientific conversation, no need to be specific, ?nor are they machines or Vulcans.


I dont agree.

telepatic reading is a far cry from emotional reading.

I cant see how any "general" statement would apply to any of those situations.

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If we see it your way, than she should be able to find out who stole her property. Emotions is more than enough to give out a lie, that's how Deanna Troi does it all the time with only emotions to read.


Right....thats hoe Deanna does it.......shes an emotion reader.

Lwaxana is a telepath.She does not, nor has it ever been implied, have the capability of reading emotions.

:)

No subspace field jamming us.
:D

I wish you would just answer the question.

Because it still looks to me like I spelled your name right.

Maybe I need new glasses or a bigger screen but it looks to me that you spell your name as

V Victor
O Other
I Ice
D David

Vold

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 6:49 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 27 2010, 3:06 pm)
Quote (Vold @ Feb. 27 2010, 3:41 am)
That's not a double cross, they are true to their word.

They are only allies so long as 8472 is still a threat & will provide them safe passage, the moment they're gone the contract is done. Plain & simple, not a double cross.

Semantics.

No matter what type of spin you try to put their actions in they still hid part of their agenda and plans.

Maybe no one asked them about it but they didnt volunteer it either.

And thats hiding.

Not just semantics, but the truth.

Complaining about it is just another human weakness of not realising it themselves, at schools, work, politics, etc.
It's a way of life, ignoring it will just lead to more pointless complains.

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That's not old tactic, that's a high threat covert operations protocol.

It took the Collective, 2 Major losses before considering utilising a "surreptitious" strategy.
Meeting the Enterprise-D is no where a threat level as losing 2 Cubes. As they lost nothing by then.
What is so threatening about it.


Thats an assumption.

The Enterprise D did, in fact, have something on bord that could have been a threat to the Borg.....if the Borg could detect it.

Q.

And if the Borg could detect Q , and have knowledge of the Q, it could result in some kind of defensive strategy.

Everything u say is an assumption too, and huge ones too.

So much for simplicity, Ever realise every assumption of urs requires something big & unique?

Actions out of behavior, Q, Mental mumbo jumbo, etc.
It's becoming a cartoon show.

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Negative, we saw only 1 Cube throughout the TNG series.
That is the same vessel they encountered in J-25.


Which does not change the fact that we saw it twice.....just like I said.

And BTW, no where in the series is it ever confirmed that its the exact same ship they encountered in system J-25.

Seeing the same thing twice does not make it the top item in the production line.

As for the same Cube, its about a year from "Neutral Zone" to "Q Who"
Than another year to "Best of Both Worlds"
Sounds like its most likely the same Cube that assimilated the colonies in the Neutral Zone as well.

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If its not immediate then its not truly simultaneous.

That means that at least 1 ship, for a short while, will have info and tech that the others do not.

At least till that info and tech are deemed safe.

That depends on how the word is used, like you said, semantics.

Whether they are implemented simultaneously with the data gathered

or

Whether the entire collective fleet in the galaxy is improved simultaneously, when they decided to do so.

In this case, I'm talking about the latter.

And if u want to look at TNG literally. The Hensen's Cube is significantly more advance, 10 years ago.
10 years is more than enough time to determine if their data is safe & implemented throughout the Galaxy.
Yet it wasn't. After all, it took them less then an hour to determine the biological distinctiveness of Species 10,026 was worth implementing even into the Queen.

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Borg Interiors (Walkways, etc.) are all the same, despite the class
Hull/foundation formation on the other hand differs due to the shape of the vessel.


Not exactly right.

The interior of the ship of J25 did look a bit different then later ships.

That's because that interior was kicked out by the set designers. The "later" ships interior is the same as the Hensen's 10 years older than J25's Cube. So if the past & the future look alike, the present don't exist. At least not the way it was shown. :D

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Which they did but you refuse to accept it. Which are


Because you havent been able to prove it with out a doubt.
The proof is right there before your eyes, but you refuse to believe it.

Later episodes all show that the Borg is more advance than what was shown in TNG, even 10 years before TNG.

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- Borg don't hide their crew count.


We know they did at least once deliberatly [Vog:Collective] and its possible that a sub-space feild interfered at J25.

That creates doubt in what your saying.
"Collective" shows they can, not that they do.

As those in "Collective" are kids, not conventional Drones, in other words not standard protocol. The Collective themselves cut them off from the Hive.

In a way, the Borg themselves is telling you the same thing.



A change in the ships design over a few years does not constitute a change in history.

Maybe the double alcoves was one of those things that were determined to be unsafe after some time.

The change was made in the past not the future.
10 years before TNG. They already have singular Alcolves back then. Hence by TNG's time paired alcolves don't exist any more.

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- Alcolves are singular not pairs
Quote
- Distribution Nodes are on walls not ceiling
Same as above.

Sams as above as well.



If that's true, than we are all stupid. We as in everyone in the entire world.
Because we retcon our history all the time, as we correct our past misconception of the past understanding.

That is how we do things, or get stuck in the false past.
We'll still think the world is flat & that we'll fall off if sail all the way in 1 direction.

By following that point of view, that means the world was flat than some how was molded round later.
:D

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- Drones can walk through forcefields

Some forcefeilds.

As you can see, you got nothing solid to eliminate any doubt.
A naked Drone was able to walk through forcefields

But since TNG was supposedly the first to try it on a Drone, 3of5 aka Hugh, should be able to walk out of the Brig.

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Its not.

A general statement would not apply.
She said she couldnt read them.....and she reads telepathically.
So she was saying she could not read them telepathically.

If she can still sense emotions why the heck is she complaining about?
Now you're only just trolling.

Since when are the Betazoid known to be talking literal or specific or detailed?

They talk like most people do, in simple english, so the simpletons can understand them easily.
But apparently we need something more simpler.

Odo himself would say, u can't read them why not just sense them.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 9:23 pm

Quote (Vold @ Feb. 27 2010, 6:49 pm)
Not just semantics, but the truth.

Complaining about it is just another human weakness of not realising it themselves, at schools, work, politics, etc.
It's a way of life, ignoring it will just lead to more pointless complains.

Oh I agree its a way of life.......but your still talking semantics.

Withholding info is the same as hiding it.


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So much for simplicity, Ever realise every assumption of urs requires something big & unique?


Quote
Q,


He was there

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Seeing the same thing twice does not make it the top item in the production line.


I'm not even sure what you mean by that.

I said we saw it twice and e did.

Quote
As for how long, a few days at most. See how fast the transport ship changes in just within a week.
And there shouldn't be much of a change, the Borg have advanced significantly throughout the centuries.

Any new thing, will be small things that takes less than a day to implement and should hardly effect the structural appearance. Mostly just subsystems that won't be seen from the outside being readjusted & improved upon.

Physical changes is a simple matter, so long as they already know what to do. Had they got the details to beat 8472, even in their dire state, they'll be able to improvise a new weapon for the entire Collective that are still linked to the Collective.


Fine.

But that doesnt really adress our line of converstation.

Quote

That's because that interior was kicked out by the set designers. The "later" ships interior is the same as the Hensen's 10 years older than J25's Cube. So if the past & the future look alike, the present don't exist. At least not the way it was shown. :D


Thats a production answer.

But an "in universe" answer could be as simple as their ever adapting nature.

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Later episodes all show that the Borg is more advance than what was shown in TNG, even 10 years before TNG.


You cant prove that.

All you can prove is that they "LOOKED" more advanced.

But thats irrelevant.

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The change was made in the past not the future.
10 years before TNG. They already have singular Alcolves back then. Hence by TNG's time paired alcolves don't exist any more.


Again ever changing every adapting.

Maybe they used single alcove, switched to double and then back to single because of some other tech they asimulated.

Again their very nature suggest that this is possible....which means theres no reason to retcon what we saw on TNG.

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A naked Drone was able to walk through forcefields


Naked???

When???
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If she can still sense emotions why the heck is she complaining about?
Now you're only just trolling.


No I'm not.

Luaxana was never said to be capable of reading emotions......only minds.

Shes complaining because she cant read his mind.

And BTW....you still havent told me if I spelled your name right.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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Report this Feb. 27 2010, 10:21 pm

interesting

Vold

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Report this Mar. 04 2010, 2:57 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote> id="QUOTE">Again ever changing every adapting.

Maybe they used single alcove, switched to double and then back to single because of some other tech they asimulated.

Again their very nature suggest that this is possible....which means theres no reason to retcon what we saw on TNG.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 27 2010, 9:23 pm)

I'm not saying its imposible, just stupid.
It makes the Borg look weirder.

And the movie itself proved otherwise, we see him fully assimilated with single Alcolves around him, while in TNG we see twin alcolves during his rescue.

The memory theory is very unlikely either because for one thing, Borg or Ex-Borg don't mistook minor things like that.
They either got block from that info entirely or forgot about it entirely, not remember it differently.

And something like an Alcolve is hard to forget, its big, somewhere you sleep all the time & it is everywhere to see it.
Even people who watch them both once in a few scenes can remember it for more then 6 years. He's been around them for a couple of days, seeing it, living it, breathing t, touching t.
All his 5 senses are interacting with it.

Touch, Sight, Listenng, Smell, ok, maybe not taste, lol
:D

Like V'Ger being Borg, the only way for it to work, s for things to look weird. Best to just cut it off like it was intended to.

Vold

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Report this Mar. 04 2010, 3:11 pm

Please answer the following questions?

1. Please state every episode you know of that states that Subspace fields can hide the crewmen onboard a ship / station / planetoid.

2. Please state every episode you know that shows the Borg hiding something under normal circumstances.
"Scorpion" not included because whether you agree or not, that's not hiding, as they never had the intention to.
"Collective" not included because the Cube is run by Imature Drones.

3. You said they hide because of Q.
If that is so, what use is there to hide the crew count from an almost omniponent being?
Why not cloak the entire ship?
Why they don't do anything with Q infront of the Drone in Engineering?

We saw how persistent they are to 8472, why not even budge with a Q?

stovokor2000

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Report this Mar. 05 2010, 12:48 am

Quote (Vold @ Mar. 04 2010, 2:57 pm)
All Betazoids can read minds & sense emotions..

That is why they distinctively say that Deana can "only" sense emotions,
Meaning a part of the whole.

When was that said???

I dont recall once in the history of TNG or DS9 that astated that Betazoids are both telepathic and empathic.

I always felt Troi's asbilities came from being a hybrid.That she developed an ability that neither human or Betazoid could do.

Quote

I'm not saying its imposible, just stupid.
It makes the Borg look weirder.


I dont agree.

And I think its stupid to dismiss or mentally retcon what we've seen in the early TNG episodes when their ever changing nature presents us with a very easy and plausible reason for what we saw.

Quote
Please answer the following questions?


I'll try.

But will you answer mine?????

Did I spell your name wrong???

Quote
2. Please state every episode you know that shows the Borg hiding something under normal circumstances.
"Scorpion" not included because whether you agree or not, that's not hiding, as they never had the intention to.
"Collective" not included because the Cube is run by Imature Drones.


I dont know how to define a "normal circumstance".....nor do I see how it applies to the situation at J-25.

That wassnt a normal cicumstance to begin with.

And they were hiding the truth in "Scorpion" and I believe they were trying to hide the exsistence of that "Dreamworld".
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If that is so, what use is there to hide the crew count from an almost omniponent being?


Who's to say the Borg know he's omniponent??

Could be they just registered his power.
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Why they don't do anything with Q infront of the Drone in Engineering?


They could have thought they would learn what they needed from the ships computers.

Vold

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16223

Report this Mar. 05 2010, 6:08 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Mar. 05 2010, 12:48 am)
Quote (Vold @ Mar. 04 2010, 2:57 pm)
All Betazoids can read minds & sense emotions..

That is why they distinctively say that Deana can "only" sense emotions,
Meaning a part of the whole.

When was that said???

I dont recall once in the history of TNG or DS9 that astated that Betazoids are both telepathic and empathic.

I always felt Troi's asbilities came from being a hybrid.That she developed an ability that neither human or Betazoid could do.

She reminded people multiple times on several occasions, that she can only sense emotions. Suggesting her powers are limited, not special beyond her Betazoid bretheren.

Encounter At Farpoint
ZORN: No objections to that, but but I'm puzzled over you bringing a Betazoid to this. If her purpose, sir, is to probe my thoughts
TROI: I can sense only strong emotions, Groppler. I am only half Betazoid. My father was a Starfleet officer.


Zorn wonders why they bring a Betazoid here, she replies she can only sense emotions because she's 1/2 Betazoid, reassuring that she's not reading his mind.

The Price
RAL: I am part Betazoid too. My mother was one half, I am one quarter.
TROI: You're empathic?
RAL: The only one of five children. I must admit I was never as comfortable sensing emotions as you seem to be.


Not about her, but here suggests even a Quarter Betazoid can sense emotions.

Sarek
SAKKATH: Counsellor Troi is a Betazoid?
DATA: Half-Betazoid. Her father was human.
SAKKATH: Then she is not a true telepath?
DATA: Her skills are empathic in nature. She is able to sense the emotions of other beings.


A Vulcan describing her as not complete, not useful to the task at hand.

ST:Nemesis
SHINZON: I have never met a human woman.
TROI: I'm only half human.
SHINZON: Deanna Troi, ...of Betazed. Empathic, telepathic abilities, ship's counselor. All this I knew. But I didn't know you were so ...beautiful.


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& a Betazoid also said
Suder: "Betazoids can sense other people's emotions. I can't even sense my own."


Can you also tell me when that was said.

Voy "Meld"

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I'm not saying its imposible, just stupid.
It makes the Borg look weirder.


I dont agree.

And I think its stupid to dismiss or mentally retcon what we've seen in the early TNG episodes when their ever changing nature presents us with a very easy and plausible reason for what we saw.
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And the movie itself proved otherwise, we see him fully assimilated with single Alcolves around him, while in TNG we see twin alcolves during his rescue.

I'll say it again if you like.....the movie proved nothing of the sort.
We saw a nightmare Picard was having.

It wasnt a "flash back" dipicting a scene from the past..... it was a memory, a dream and we cant know how much of that dream was influenced by his sub-conscious.

And I dont see it as "unlikely".Picards mind is still human and is subjective to all the same types of stimuly and falts we all are.
Yes he have the same faults, but not entirely the same.
You have to consider how different he is to us as well.

Dreams
But first, dreams are not that complecated, especially not to an adult.
We're no longer kids where visuals may be warped. I've dream countless times & remembered more than 1/2 of them.

1 thing that remains constant, is the physical appearance of objects. It never fails to look the way they should. Things that I've seen for only a few minutes to things I use on a daily basis.

We may hear things differently or remember occasions differently in dreams, but object appearances stay the same. For no matter where that object is, a book is still a book, a computer is a computer, a table & chair is as it is.

People's faces however are complicated to see clearly, as the possibilities are endless, even to the waking thought.

Now as for Picard, he is more evolved than we are, thanks to scientific advancement & training.
Not to mentioned, he had Borg enhancements as well. Least we forget, he's a captain, musician, geologyst, etc.
All these work requires a lot of memory work, if he can't even remember how his bed looks like he's pitiful.

Alcolves
It is also strange for him to forget how he stood in an Alcolve, singular alcolves have their hands straight down, twin alcolves have 1 hand lifted up on a panel.

So forget about how the Alcolve look like, but the very fact that the body position is different should tip something.

Flashbacks
Remember, he's not only dreaming he did indeed have flashback at the end of the film, when he met the Queen.

Surprise, surprise, even in his waking flashbacks, the alcolves are singular & look nothing like in TNG series.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Mar. 05 2010, 7:46 pm

Quote (Vold @ Mar. 05 2010, 6:08 pm)
She reminded people multiple times on several occasions, that she can only sense emotions. Suggesting her powers are limited, not special beyond her Betazoid bretheren.

I dont see how her use of the word "only" would bring you to that conclusion.

She can only read emotions....not minds.

I dont see how that suggest to you that all Betazoids can read emotions.
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The Price
RAL: I am part Betazoid too. My mother was one half, I am one quarter.
TROI: You're empathic?
RAL: The only one of five children. I must admit I was never as comfortable sensing emotions as you seem to be.


Not about her, but here suggests even a Quarter Betazoid can sense emotions.


You may have something here.

At least this gave me something to consider.
Quote

ST:Nemesis
SHINZON: I have never met a human woman.
TROI: I'm only half human.
SHINZON: Deanna Troi, ...of Betazed. Empathic, telepathic abilities, ship's counselor. All this I knew. But I didn't know you were so ...beautiful.


I always felt that was a mistake on SHINZON's part.

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If that's true, than we are all stupid. We as in everyone in the entire world.
Because we retcon our history all the time, as we correct our past misconception of the past understanding.


Yes we do, and the practice and we are stupid for doing so.

But thats a completly different conversation.

Quote

Dreams
But first, dreams are not that complecated, especially not to an adult.
We're no longer kids where visuals may be warped. I've dream countless times & remembered more than 1/2 of them.

1 thing that remains constant, is the physical appearance of objects. It never fails to look the way they should. Things that I've seen for only a few minutes to things I use on a daily basis.


Dreams are far more complecated then your describing...even for an adult.

I retain memory for well over 70% of my dreams and the 1 thing that remains constant is the unpredictable nature of them.

I see a strange person I have never seen before but some how its suposed to be my father.

The physical appearance of a person,place or things is only accurate about 20% of the time in my dreams.

I dreamed last night and in my dream I was driving what was suposed to be my first car........but it looked nothing like my first car.
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Flashbacks
Remember, he's not only dreaming he did indeed have flashback at the end of the film, when he met the Queen.

Surprise, surprise, even in his waking flashbacks, the alcolves are singular & look nothing like in TNG series.


That was a "flash of memory" not a "flash back".

When I say "flash back" its more like what we see in some episodes in films when we are shown a scene that says "10 years ago".

Maybe "flash back" isint the right term.

Either way what we saw with Picard there was either a flash of memory or a transmision from the Queen.

Neither can be trusted to be accurate.

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