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Should Astrology be taught in public schools?

God_in_an_Alcove

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:01 pm

Quote (Somerled_ex_Siistertrek @ Feb. 18 2010, 6:53 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Feb. 17 2010, 12:23 am)
First of all, I said "members of every major religion," not "ever member of major religions." Obviously, I'm not saying that they all do it.

Secondly, I've seen this kind of thing in just about every place I've spent more than a month in, whether that be Boston, New York City, New Orleans, San Diego, or Hollywood. Indeed, I saw this just last Thursday on Hollywood Boulevard. I watched as a group of 20 or so Vietnamese Christians (I think they were Vietnamese, in any case) walking up and down the Boulevard yelling into bullhorns about Jesus. One woman gave a homeless kid $20 and said "God love you." The homeless kid thanked her for the money and then told her that he didn't believe in God. At this point, she snatched back the $20 and began screaming that he was going to burn for eternity unless he accepted Jesus in his heart. Fifteen minutes later, when this group was walking back on the other side of the Boulevard, she started screaming across the street at him saying the same basic stuff.

I've seen similar things in North Hollywood, Venice Beach, and Downtown LA just within the past three months. Maybe you've been lucky enough not to see this kind of thing, but it tends to happen more than some people think.

I've personally encountered that kind of nonsense , and been on the recieving end of it , I had a colleague who was an Adventist and he found out I was an athiest (not from me directly) and he set out to convert me , I told him bluntly to "rack off and not to come preaching around me" , at that he let fly and until he was "asked to leave" he made a point of making nasty comments about me (saying stuff like above and worse) to anyone who would listen to him and in regularly in departmental meetings.

It makes me wonder how people like this can even dare to call themselves "Christian."

Quote
There several extremely vicious cults in Australia : the ones that come to mind are -
House of Yahweh
Exclusive Brethren
Seventh Day Adventist
Lord Our Righteousness Church
Mormons
Scientology
.... note most of these are christian utlrafundamentalist.


To be fair, Scientology shouldn't be lumped in there at all. They're not Christian. They're not even a real religion. They're a huge global pyramid scheme.

:laugh:

Well, maybe I am. I didn't know the guy.

Cherry_On_Top

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:03 pm

I know someone who walked up to a woman with a child in a parking lot who had one of those darwin symbols on her car and said  "he's cute.  Too bad you aren't giving him the greatest gift of all and he will be going to hell"

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:11 pm

Quote (rocketscientist @ Feb. 17 2010, 12:53 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Feb. 17 2010, 10:38 pm)
Does it matter when, where, or how it happens? The point is that it does, and the people who are the targets of such attacks have every right to get pissed off at it.

So, then it's ok for me to get p!ssed off if some atheist here calls me "irrational," "ignorant," or "delusional" for being Catholic?

Well, as to your point, I agree, it's never right to engage in bigotry. ¿All I was saying that these sorts of things, this public marching by some angry evagelicals which I've experienced and disliked too (because yes, a lot of them don't like the Catholics and Mormons either), are small potatoes compared to other things I've seen and heard about. ¿Again, I thought you were referring to something more personal and pervasive, like Beccs talking about the proselyting in schools or the other member who referred to religious nepotism. ¿Or even vandalism, verbal abuse, or terrorism like the Mormons have experienced out here in SoCal in the wake of prop. 8. ¿
And that's really nothing compared to the persecution of Christians in Pakistan, Egypt, and Iraq, the Sunni-Shia secretarian warfare in Iraq, or the anti-semetisicm that exists in much of the world. ¿

I've never heard of widespread condemnation of atheists in the Western world.

Not hearing about it in person or being AWARE OF IT or interested enough TO NOTICE IT are very different things.

I suspect it is the later for most believers.

I've had more than enough crap from believers most of whom I regard as being delusional and I now pull no punches when the subject comes up , and it often seems to in places like this .

Sure there are many very pleasant christians out there , even some very pleasant fundamentalists , and I've regularly engaged in very good and entirely civil discussions with them on belief , jesus rising , existance of god, angels, demons, heaven , hell, souls,  creation , origin of man , evolution , our place in the universe and many other subjects. Fes at Sistertrek was one such person.

ssmukhi

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:11 pm

Quote (MarmaladeSkies @ Feb. 17 2010, 11:41 pm)
I have a Taurean in-law who fits all these qualities, especially the last one if you believe in all his exploits. LOL.

Having a strong sex drive does NOT necessarily equal action. Many times it's frustration.  :(

Lucifer_

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:38 pm

Quote (Somerled_ex_Siistertrek @ Feb. 18 2010, 9:53 pm)
...I've been had rants about how I am satan's [spawn]

This hellspawn must be illegitimate or something, because I don't remember crapping him out (Didn't you know, all Satanic spawn are butt-babies made from hot, sweaty man-sex! ).

grigori

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:38 pm

Quote (dandandat @ Feb. 18 2010, 2:37 pm)
If this information can be lost with in such a relatively short amount of time. How can you say so defiantly that a species wide brain drain over the last few thousand years is preposterous. It most certainly is not preposterous, it?s even happening now as we speak.

The dark ages can definitely be categorized as a large scale brain drain. And there have been similar incidences through out history like the dark ages.

It most certainly is possible that we do not have knowledge that our ancient ancestors once had.

I'll speak from an area of expertise in history and say: you're absolutely right. The number of times mankind has re-invented the wheel is staggering.

Those guys back in the day put a man on the moon with less computer power than you have in your PC. What took up the slack? Human amazingness--ingenuity and a lot of hard work on the fly.

Lucifer_

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Report this Feb. 18 2010, 10:40 pm

Quote (Cherry_On_Top @ Feb. 18 2010, 10:03 pm)
I know someone who walked up to a woman with a child in a parking lot who had one of those darwin symbols on her car and said ¿"he's cute. ¿Too bad you aren't giving him the greatest gift of all and he will be going to hell"

I'd kick that motherfrakker square in the nuts if he talked to one of my butt-babies kids like that.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Feb. 19 2010, 1:10 am

Quote (CtotheRtotheOBob @ Feb. 17 2010, 6:54 pm)
Quote (Kdbtrekkin @ Feb. 16 2010, 2:33 am)
Quote (CtotheRtotheOBob @ Feb. 15 2010, 12:55 pm)
Quote (dandandat @ Feb. 15 2010, 12:29 pm)
Quote (CtotheRtotheOBob @ Feb. 15 2010, 3:24 pm)
Quote (dandandat @ Feb. 15 2010, 12:23 pm)
Quote (CtotheRtotheOBob @ Feb. 15 2010, 3:18 pm)
... Oh? Complex predictions such as?

Such as positions of stars and other celestial bodies at some future date

... Something Astronomy does better.

Perhaps modern Astronomy with all the super computers and technology does do a better job. But that does not discount the fact that these people where able to perform such complex feats without all the modern technology. They obviously possessed something that we lost, it would probably be worthwhile for humanity to rediscover whatever that is.

Something? How about "math"? We still have that, guy.

Do you not believe in the lost library of Alexandria, all the ancient knowledge that's just now coming back into our existence, and only with the help of technology, what happened to the human mind at some point. I can't even speculate, so I won't. ?But if you read even just a little bit of Plato or Socrates, it feels as if we've grown away from something, and we need to find our way back, but not going back to the past, but bringing the past to the future and making it the present. With the future as balance to the rut of the past.

As for Astrology in school, that could be an elective in High School. Course than they would have to bring in a solely Astronomy class to, maybe they could put as something you take in college, there are people out there that make money off of Astrology, some for good, some not(bastards, oh well, there will always be bastards out there). Now just like the upcoming video game classes now you can take Astrology classes to, some people really feel for Astrology and if they had someone who was Higher educated in that knowledge they would probably pay good money to have accurate and possibly everyday or something similar projections. (hint hint at Stranger in a Strange Land and probably other sci fi novels as well).

Okay, firstly, you don't read "Plato or Socrates" (emphasis mine), since We know about Socrates primarily through Plato's writings. He never wrote anything himself. Some guy called something like Xenophilibopintobianitus also wrote about him, and there's apparently a play wherein he claims to be able to walk on the wind from way back when, but that's it. Socrates never wrote anything.

Secondly, the thing Socrates had that we lack now is logic. And we don't lack that, you can go to any university, even community (shitty) ones to learn about it. Saying we lack something Socrates had is like saying we lack something Newton had.

What do computers have to do with it? It's not like we make-up for something we lost by using them, we're simply making more accurate predictions. And faster. You talk about them as though they're a crutch for our weakened mind. No, they're the product of our strong mind.

Yeah, perhaps things man used to know got lost, but to presume it's in any way superior to what we now know is silly. We can send men to the moon, we can talk across the planet at the speed of light, and we can walk down the road for a microwave burrito or go to the fridge for a beer. We've accomplished more with our knowledge and methods then they ever did, insofar as we can tell.

Not superior just lost, doesn't mean it can't be found again and if we have to find with the help of technology so be it, but it's always nice to find stuff with just the human brain. Get back to using our brains more, is all I'm saying, let the brain catch up to technology and I can only imagine what we could accomplish then.

Back in the day they didn't have this great technology we have now, but they thought of stuff and acted in certain ways that haven't been re found yet so to speak and they did those things with there brains, not with help from a really fast computer.

Yes the reason we are here now is because of our great minds, but I think when you look out at the world and see all that misery, yet we're here with our great technology, you feel something isn't quite right. Our instincts our emotions haven't developed as fast as our brains(technology). I'm not saying we should just stop using computers. Just to start somehow education our emotions our instincts. When that balance is made, watch out Universe, here we come.

rocketscientist

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Report this Feb. 19 2010, 12:43 pm

Quote (Somerled_ex_Siistertrek @ Feb. 18 2010, 9:53 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Feb. 17 2010, 12:23 am)
First of all, I said "members of every major religion," not "ever member of major religions." Obviously, I'm not saying that they all do it.

Secondly, I've seen this kind of thing in just about every place I've spent more than a month in, whether that be Boston, New York City, New Orleans, San Diego, or Hollywood. Indeed, I saw this just last Thursday on Hollywood Boulevard. I watched as a group of 20 or so Vietnamese Christians (I think they were Vietnamese, in any case) walking up and down the Boulevard yelling into bullhorns about Jesus. One woman gave a homeless kid $20 and said "God love you." The homeless kid thanked her for the money and then told her that he didn't believe in God. At this point, she snatched back the $20 and began screaming that he was going to burn for eternity unless he accepted Jesus in his heart. Fifteen minutes later, when this group was walking back on the other side of the Boulevard, she started screaming across the street at him saying the same basic stuff.

I've seen similar things in North Hollywood, Venice Beach, and Downtown LA just within the past three months. Maybe you've been lucky enough not to see this kind of thing, but it tends to happen more than some people think.

I've personally encountered that kind of nonsense , and been on the recieving end of it , I had a colleague who was an Adventist and he found out I was an athiest (not from me directly) and he set out to convert me , I told him bluntly to "rack off and not to come preaching around me" , at that he let fly and until he was "asked to leave" he made a point of making nasty comments about me (saying stuff like above and worse) to anyone who would listen to him and in regularly in departmental meetings.

More recently I've been had rants about how I am satan's sporn and I'll burn in hell from my mad/bad next door neighbour who also regularly gets into "god thing" , sits on his front patio reading a kiddies bible (well it looks like one - lots of pictures , very big text) out very loud , the he stops and prays (looks like he prays) , even louder if he sees me as he knows I'm not a believer.

There several extremely vicious cults in Australia : the ones that come to mind are -
House of Yahweh
Exclusive Brethren
Seventh Day Adventist
Lord Our Righteousness Church
Mormons
Scientology
.... note most of these are christian utlrafundamentalist.

Those nicely dressed young (mostly american) people (Mormons) who come knocking on the front door can be quite nasty when they are told you aren't interested because you don't beleive.. Had a few of them tell me unless I accept god I'm doomed for all eternity .... no point even entering a discussion with those people so I don't bother , I now just shut the door in their faces and tell them immediately "buggeroff - I'm not interested".

Sorry to hear about your negative experiences from people of faith. ¿That would p!ss me off too. ¿

But I have to strongly disagree with you regarding the Mormons, members of the Church of LDS. ¿

Mormons are not a vicious cult. ¿I know, I married into a Mormon family and I'm a Catholic. ¿They have been wonderful to me and I feel so lucky to have another mom and dad (and I do call my mom-in-law mom too, which she loves), 2 more brothers, 3 more sisters, and 17 nieces and nephews. ¿I've met a whole lot Mormons and spent time in Utah. ¿And I've met many of those missionaries too. ¿My nephew is going out on his mission in a year and he's a kind, smart, and upstanding young man. ¿My parents were very happy and touched that I was marrying into such a large and loving family. ¿ ¿

I'm sorry if you had a negative experience with some of the missionaries, but none of the ones I have ever encountered have ever said I'd be going to hell for not being Mormon. ¿

I take great exception to people who characterize their faith as "a vicious cult." ¿It is nothing of the kind. ¿Yes, it's a very grass-roots religion and yes, there is a lot of social pressure with it, and there are things I don't like about it (especially the pressure they put on the young people to marry early and the more patriarchal bent to it), but then there are a lot of things I don't like about my own church either (i.e. the bishops that protected pedophile priests being #1). ¿But LDS members are free to leave and many of them do or become inactive. ¿In that respect, I also know many of my wife's friends who have left the church. ¿None of their families have ostracized them at all for that.  

So, sorry if you met a couple bad missionaries, but I can assure you that Mormons as a whole are some of the nicest, kindest, and most family oriented people on earth (although I know pro-gay marriage people here would strongly disagree with me, considering how Mormons were demonized after the election).

rocketscientist

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Report this Feb. 19 2010, 12:54 pm

Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Feb. 18 2010, 9:28 pm)
Quote (rocketscientist @ Feb. 17 2010, 7:53 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Feb. 17 2010, 10:38 pm)
Does it matter when, where, or how it happens? The point is that it does, and the people who are the targets of such attacks have every right to get pissed off at it.

So, then it's ok for me to get p!ssed off if some atheist here calls me "irrational," "ignorant," or "delusional" for being Catholic?

Of course.

I'm glad you agree with me GA.  I appreciate that. :)

Quote
Well, as to your point, I agree, it's never right to engage in bigotry. ?All I was saying that these sorts of things, this public marching by some angry evagelicals which I've experienced and disliked too (because yes, a lot of them don't like the Catholics and Mormons either), are small potatoes compared to other things I've seen and heard about.


Maybe it bothers me because I've seen it more. Not just marches, but things people say on message boards and such. And, being pagan, I've had to deal with it from both mainly Christians and atheists. So I'm getting hit from both sides.


Well, I know how you feel wrt MB.  I see a lot of Mormon bashing and Catholic bashing here and on the news boards.  That recent story this week about that guy assaulting Romney on the plane?  Sure, enough, I checked the comments to that story on abcnews.com and there was some whack-job railing about the evil Mormon empire and saying how they owned Coke and Pepsi, blah, blah, blah.  Nothing to do with the story at all.  Similarly, this recent comment by Elton John that Jesus was gay?  The head of the Catholic League calls John a "sexual deviant," in response, something I don't endorse at all, I find it mean-spirited and un-Christian behaviour.  Anyway, same thing.  On the comments to that story on cnn.com, a whole bunch of people aren't bashing the jerk who said ripped on Sir Elton (who wasn't entirely innocent wrt his comment either, I was dissapointed with him too, as I'm a big fan, but I understand why he wanted to say that), they're bashing all Catholics.  I would never say something like that about Elton John.  It's mean-spirited and, even if he was trying to rile and anger Christians with his comment, two wrongs don't make a right, which is what the head of the Catholic Leauge did.  He certainly misreprensented me.  

And, yeah, it sounds like it's tough to be a pagan.  

Quote
Again, I thought you were referring to something more personal and pervasive, like Beccs talking about the proselyting in schools or the other member who referred to religious nepotism. ?Or even vandalism, verbal abuse, or terrorism like the Mormons have experienced out here in SoCal in the wake of prop. 8. ?
And that's really nothing compared to the persecution of Christians in Pakistan, Egypt, and Iraq, the Sunni-Shia secretarian warfare in Iraq, or the anti-semetisicm that exists in much of the world.


I have been physically attacked by a group of Christians for saying that I was happy with my spiritual beliefs and had no interest in learning about Jesus in any way other than the academic. On the other hand, another group of Christians attacked that group for being assholes, and even apologized to me for the first group's behavior, so I do know full well that not all Christians are bad. I'm not trying to imply otherwise.


Wow, sorry to hear you were physically attacked!!!  How and when did that happen!?!??:!   :O

Quote
I've never heard of widespread condemnation of atheists in the Western world.

It's wide-spread. Just not always in the public eye.


I guess so, because, again, I've never heard about it.

rocketscientist

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Report this Feb. 19 2010, 12:58 pm

Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Feb. 18 2010, 10:01 pm)
Interestingly, I've never had a bad run-in with Mormons. I've heard several times from them that I'm very "Christ-like." I'm what?! :laugh:

Well, maybe I am. I didn't know the guy.

:laugh: Just take it as a compliment.

rocketscientist

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Report this Feb. 19 2010, 12:59 pm

Quote (Cherry_On_Top @ Feb. 18 2010, 10:03 pm)
I know someone who walked up to a woman with a child in a parking lot who had one of those darwin symbols on her car and said ?"he's cute. ?Too bad you aren't giving him the greatest gift of all and he will be going to hell"

I'd tell that guy to F*** off.

That would be un-Christian of me, I know, but I'm definitely not a perfect guy at all.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 19 2010, 2:20 pm

Just to settle that whole gravity thing from earlier - It's another failed analogy.

See, gravity exists.  We know it exists, else we'd be floating off into space.  The theory part is that we don't understand exactly how or why it works.

The basic concept of gravity wouldn't be equivilent to evolution, it would be equivilent to the fact that we exist.  How or why we exist is a theory, but we can be sure that we exist.  

Therefore, saying that gravity is a theory isn't actually correct - There are theories of gravity that are very often proven wrong or partially incorrect, but the very core concept is not a theory.

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