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final disappointments

docbashir

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POSTS: 4

Report this Feb. 14 2010, 1:24 am

first, let me say overall ds9 was quite entertaining; its best episodes are the best of any trek i've seen, and i appreciate the amount of character development and growth that occurs over the course of the series.

my biggest disappointment is with the prophets' final warning to sisko about marrying kassidy and how it pans out (apologies, i'll be paraphrasing quotes and won't necessarily cite episodes by name). ¿the prophets tell him if he marries her he'll know "nothing but sorrow." ¿when he does get married, sarah appears and says that she won't be able to protect him from what happens, then holds his head to her breast. ¿this to me suggested we were going to see something extremely tragic in the finale, like kassidy plus a number of other major characters dying as a result of that choice. ¿they'd already upped the stakes by killing jadzia at the end of season 6 (though i suppose they stepped back from that in the very next episode by adding the new dax). ¿instead, sisko becomes a prophet, and so is separated from his wife, son, and unborn child. ¿it's sad, yes, but "nothing but sorrow?" he's not even sad about it when it happens! ¿if he really has become a prophet he 1 exists outside of linear time and 2 can appear to anyone he wishes, in situations including touch, whenever he wants.

i also have problems with the characters of ducat and winn. ¿ducat appears to want to be liked and appreciated by the bajorans, yes, but it seems like, in the episode where he and sisko are marooned together on the planet, he manages to talk through his issues and come to the conclusion that that was all really a repression of his ultimate desire to kill them all, finishes what he should've done during the occupation. ¿he also announces a blood feud with sisko. ¿ok. ¿then the next time we see him he's converted to ¿bajoran religion, albeit a heretical interpretation, and seems reluctant to engage sisko directly. ¿you can almost see how it all fits together, but it seems more likely the different writers never fully gelled their interpretations.

winn ends up being a one-sided caricature. ¿in the early seasons, she's fun to hate, and when she becomes kai, she makes a number of awful decisions. ¿you can always assume, though, that she's ultimately on the side of the bajorans, that she'll do the prophets' will. ¿you develop some nice sympathy when she tells kyrra about being beaten/tortured during the occupation. ¿i was looking forward to the day when we'd see her and sisko finally unite for the greater good. ¿instead, she was, from the start, a faithless, power-hungry manipulator, presumably faking her way through orb experiences her entire life. ¿it seems like her pah would've been weak, something detectable enough given their habit of squeezing each other's ears all the time. ¿and she doesn't recognize ducat by his voice or face but it becomes obvious as soon as her assistant mentions it.

both these characters get sympathetic treatment in the middle of the series only to have it yanked back at the end, a move which speaks more of writerly sleight-of-hand than the psychologically realistic development of the other characters in the series.

ezri was a terrible idea but i have a feeling everyone here already knows that.

to me, these are all significant areas in which the writers lost their way, and it seriously weakened the effect of the ending. ¿i'm curious if anyone agrees with me or would like to offer a rebuttal.

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Feb. 14 2010, 11:18 am

I never saw Winn as being "evil," just HUGELY selfish and self-centered. And that was her undoing.

As for Dukat? Yeah, it looked like he was on the path to redemption, but once he saw the chance to regain power through the alliance with the Dominion? It was all over.

And when we saw "Waltz," I think we all knew there was no turning back for the "crazy" Dukat. Now, I'm not saying I was necessarily a fan of his Bajoran disguise and "relationship" with Winn... But he was evil to the core (although in a misguided "doesn't everyone else see that I'm right?" sorta way).

And no, I don't think "everyone here" thinks Ezri was a "terrible idea." I, for one, loved Ezri.

Don't get me wrong... A lot of people assume that means I must hate Jadzia. And that's not the case. While I feel Terry Farrell/Jadzia might have been one of the weaker actors/characters on the show, she was still a great friend to Sisko and a great foil for Worf.

But Ezri was a breath of fresh air. She was cute, naive, and spunky. (I mean, I really dug her words to Worf in "Tacking Into the Wind;" Jadzia had never come to that conclusion.) Plus, she ended up with Bashir, which was a really nice touch ... and provided a nice bookend to the series.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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POSTS: 2016

Report this Feb. 14 2010, 12:53 pm

I never saw Dukat as wanting to be redeemed especially after the death of his daughter.  Once that happened it seemed like his humanity was lost, and he wanted revenge anyway he could get it especially against Sisko.

spacemonster

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POSTS: 2423

Report this Feb. 14 2010, 4:53 pm

Dukat was an angry bitter man after his daughter's death.  However he wasn't contempt with just killing one person, nor did he care about being a military officer anymore.  He elevated himself to seek out revenge in the sweetest way possible.

Ezri2

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POSTS: 9864

Report this Feb. 14 2010, 8:16 pm

docbashir, I just finished the series for about the billionth time as well :cool: and I have to say, I was irked by the same comments you've listed above.

The fact that Sisko did not seem too sad about leaving Kas was one thing, but stacking on top of that the fact that she is pregnant? Whoa there... those prohets must have some frickin "love washing over" thing mabobs going on for him to almost blantantly ignore his wife and son.

By the way Driver, thank you *crosses heart* for your love of Ezri's character. I really wish people would stop dissing her haha. She was, as you say, a breath of fresh air from the doom and gloom of the other officers. :cool:

desidax

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POSTS: 1

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 4:02 am

I just finished watching the series just this moment.. and of course i cried.. i loved this series better than next gen. and im going to miss it. there really wasnt any disappointments. i think demar shouldnt have died i think he would have changed Cardassia but then again.. thinking about it.. Cardassia was humbled. now the whole Sisqo thing. He should have been with his wife and unborn child.. and he could have been but the dam prophets. he was happy  ( in my opinion) because he knew he was fulfiling his destiny and one day return to be with the people he loved. and i believe when sara said there would be sorrow she meant for sisqo because if he ended up not marrying Cassidy  she wouldnt have gotten pregnant and Sisqo would have just continued on his jouney not haveing to worry about anyone but now his sorrow is him leaving his wife and children alone .... yup. ....


there was no borg.... wtf. :bored:

spacemonster

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POSTS: 2423

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 4:34 am

I liked how they made Damar die in the final assault. It gave the scene more reality to it rather than make it super-hero cartoony.

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 8:44 am

Quote (desidax @ Feb. 15 2010, 7:02 am)
there was no borg.... wtf. :bored:

"Emissary" and "First Contact" (which not only featured Worf and the Defiant, but was referenced in the series proper).

Mantaray

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POSTS: 2793

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 12:44 pm

Quote (docbashir @ Feb. 14 2010, 1:24 am)
ezri was a terrible idea but i have a feeling everyone here already knows that.

to me, these are all significant areas in which the writers lost their way, and it seriously weakened the effect of the ending. ?i'm curious if anyone agrees with me or would like to offer a rebuttal.

I actually agree with most of what you say.

I think that the writers lost their way in Season 7 (which is why I think its one of the weakest seasons and easily the most disappointing).

The addition of Ezri was a terrible idea which helped to derail most of the final season in terms of story, plot and focus on the main characters until the 10 or so episodes.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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POSTS: 2016

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 5:52 pm

Season 7 in DS9 started strong but it just seemed rushed at the end.  Honestly I was thinking, "I don't care about that come on lets get on with the War!!"

And when the end came it was so quickly rushed that it seemed almost unbelievable.  I think they should have knocked out a couple of vic and Ezri episodes out, because I did like the finale I just thought it was abrupt.

Ezri2

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POSTS: 9864

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 6:02 pm

Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Feb. 14 2010, 7:52 pm)
Season 7 in DS9 started strong but it just seemed rushed at the end. ?Honestly I was thinking, "I don't care about that come on lets get on with the War!!"

And when the end came it was so quickly rushed that it seemed almost unbelievable. ?I think they should have knocked out a couple of vic and Ezri episodes out, because I did like the finale I just thought it was abrupt.

You found a 10 episode story arc abrupt? The writers had Season 7 planned long beforehand, and they chose to shut the series down in only 10 episodes. If you ask me, they did a hell of a job too. I didn't find it abrupt; actually I thought it was rather smoothly done.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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POSTS: 2016

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 6:09 pm

You didn't think that the way the war ended was like some kind of "all is forgiven and back to normal."  That Ware was incredibly bloody, and people lost people dear to them.  The founders almost killed themselves trying to win it.  It just ended too quickly.  There should have been more of a build up to it.

Ezri2

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POSTS: 9864

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 6:20 pm

Ah I see your point about the "flowers, puppies and kittens in the meadow" type deal in WYLB, but I think that they allowed the blood from the Dominion War to be overlooked because the series was ending! Would you have a good opinion of DS9 if it ended with sombrierity and bitterness?

captbates

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POSTS: 12614

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 6:27 pm

Quote (TheDriver @ Feb. 13 2010, 4:18 pm)
I never saw Winn as being "evil," just HUGELY selfish and self-centered. And that was her undoing.

As for Dukat? Yeah, it looked like he was on the path to redemption, but once he saw the chance to regain power through the alliance with the Dominion? It was all over.

And when we saw "Waltz," I think we all knew there was no turning back for the "crazy" Dukat. Now, I'm not saying I was necessarily a fan of his Bajoran disguise and "relationship" with Winn... But he was evil to the core (although in a misguided "doesn't everyone else see that I'm right?" sorta way).

And no, I don't think "everyone here" thinks Ezri was a "terrible idea." I, for one, loved Ezri.

Don't get me wrong... A lot of people assume that means I must hate Jadzia. And that's not the case. While I feel Terry Farrell/Jadzia might have been one of the weaker actors/characters on the show, she was still a great friend to Sisko and a great foil for Worf.

But Ezri was a breath of fresh air. She was cute, naive, and spunky. (I mean, I really dug her words to Worf in "Tacking Into the Wind;" Jadzia had never come to that conclusion.) Plus, she ended up with Bashir, which was a really nice touch ... and provided a nice bookend to the series.

I'd go along with most of that Driver. ¿:)


Winn just seemed to let herself be dragged down by her pursuit of power, I don't think she would have chose the path she finaly took, but at some point she must have realised she'd already crossed the point of no return, so to speak, and that only total power could protect her, or comfort her. As for her final chance at redemption in the Fire Caves, was she doing the right thing helping Sisko, or did she just not want Dukat getting all the power?

Dukat seemed to want some form of validation from Bajor, but at the same time was willing to destroy everyone. He had the personality of an arrogant dictator who at times showed huge amounts of love and tenderness, mixed in with a ruthlessness that should strike fear into anyone. His contact with the Pah Wraiths just pushed him further into megalomania, to a point of no return, kinda like Winn in a sense.

Ezri was a great inclusion to the final series, without her it could have just been buisness as usual. Sure we could have done without Prodigal Daughter and some other episodes, but she freshend things up all round IMO, creating new avenues to explore between most of the senior staff.




BTW, Jadzia being killed off was down to Farrell leaving, not poor judgment by the writers.

captbates

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POSTS: 12614

Report this Feb. 15 2010, 6:34 pm

Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Feb. 14 2010, 11:09 pm)
You didn't think that the way the war ended was like some kind of "all is forgiven and back to normal." ¿That Ware was incredibly bloody, and people lost people dear to them. ¿The founders almost killed themselves trying to win it. ¿It just ended too quickly. ¿There should have been more of a build up to it.

Without going into too much detail the way the war ended was less dramatic than it could have been, with less killing on both sides, but that was down to the Female shapeshifter calling a halt to hostilities. The Dominion could have crippled the fleet leaving the Alpha quadrant wide open, but they chose to accept defeat in return for Odo and the cure.

No one was happy about having lost so much, but they were glad it was all over, and remember we never got to see their reactions a year or two down the line, who knows how everyone was feeling then?

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