ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Why does DS9 make us like villains?

the bungalo bill

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2308

Report this Jun. 11 2011, 7:05 am

DS9 has better character development because it takes place on a station, and so there are consequences for their actions.


palegothicangel

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 12:17 pm

Quote: toranaprem @ Jan. 25 2011, 10:45 am

>

>Dukat (why, oh, why is he so damn attractive?!)

>


 


i thought i was the only one, lol ^_^

Chech'tluth

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 30

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 8:28 pm

I don't think acting unethically to survive is really being a villan. A  villan seems to be evil for personal gain or just for the pleasure of it, but not to survive. Disregarding any outside influence to be a villain, I think most, if not all the time, the series depicted heroism. True villans seem more like the Borg even though they may see themselves as hereos because assimilation eventually leads to perfection in their mind. However, in this case collective gain; And to be 'forced' to assimilate regardless makes them still more like true villains.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 8:32 pm

Quote: Chech'tluth @ Jun. 18 2011, 8:28 pm

>

>I don't think acting unethically to survive is really being a villain.

>


That all depends on what one's unethical actions are.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Chech'tluth

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 30

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 9:55 pm

Quote: OtakuJo @ Jun. 18 2011, 8:32 pm

Quote: Chech'tluth @ Jun. 18 2011, 8:28 pm

>

>

>I don't think acting unethically to survive is really being a villain.

>

That all depends on what one's unethical actions are.


 


Then maybe we should examine the worst possible unethical action. Genocide or torture for instance. In both cases, although horrific, if the means is to survive or die, then however unethical it may be it still seems one (or many) would have a natural right to do so. AKA self-defense. To choose to die to avoid such atrocities is heroic but should not be labled as evil imo. The means of a villain, I think, seems to be drawn from pure evil.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Jun. 18 2011, 11:11 pm

But when you get into the problem of "pure evil", you get into the dangerous territory of: "I'm not evil, so it would never be me." When of course the problem is that it could very well be you contributing to a great wrong.


The best, most well drawn villains are those who think their reasons are just, or who think that they are committing this evil in order to survive. As with Marritza in his guise of Darhe'el. He said: "We had an empire to protect. Everything I did was for the greater glory of Cardassia." (He is not a villain but he is using the party line to get Kira angry at him.)


And Captain Picard's final speech in TNG "The Drumhead": "Villains who twirl their moustaches are easy to spot. Those who cloak themselves in good deeds are far [better hidden]. Vigilance, Mr Worf. That is the price we must eternally pay." (brackets for where I can't quite recall the exact quote.)


The more complex an apparent villain, the more realistic I think they are, and the more interesting. Because the point is, when an antagonist thinks they are justified, that's when they could bring otherwise good people over to the side of evil. It doesn't mean that their actions are justified.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Chech'tluth

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 30

Report this Jun. 19 2011, 9:02 pm

Oh I agree "when an antagonist thinks they are justified" and the wolf in sheeps clothing types of antagonists are the most realistic. I really meant to examine the end of their evil rather than the means. Although characters contribute to a 'great wrong', whether they think its evil or not, I like to look at their purpose of doing so. If it's for survival, it just seems not really 'pure evil'. But if it's for personal gain or just for their own entertainment that seems to define pure evil to me.


One way to see if a character is purely evil is to ask ourselves if we feel sympathy for that character. If not, then that character(s) is purely evil - a true villain imo. The borg, the evil phyicist Soran in the Generations movie (I think), the Picard clone or w/e in Nemisis are a few examples of true villains.


Of course there are many more of the many species that are purely evil. But I cannot agree that "ds9 makes us like villains" in comparison to the villains mentioned above.

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Jun. 19 2011, 10:43 pm

hmm...


The Borg fall into a slightly different category to Soran and oh-crap-brainfart what'sisname??! Their brand of evil is a little like what I would call Missionary Evil: Be like us because it's better for you (and better for us.)


Soran is a bit of a sympathetic character in a way: His obsession is borne of pain, in the destruction of his people, and a reality that he cannot bear to face. I think for me, he is the furthest of the three villains you list from "pure evil".


In the case of OMG-I-know-I-know-this-guy's-name-BUT...aaaaagh... Picard's clone, his is from bitterness I guess. He hates Romulans because of the way he was treated, and hates Picard because for him, Picard's life represents how his own life would have been if only it were easier.


In each, their motives are a little more complex than seen from the surface (the Borg's possibly the simplest -- but they are the most sinister of those you listed, I think.)


*Waves forlornly as Trek-cred. departs yet again... I do know that guy's name! It's on the "tip of my fingers". Really!!*



Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

OtakuJo

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16362

Report this Jun. 19 2011, 10:44 pm

SHINZON!!!


Goody. I can sleep tonight.


Have you ever danced with a Tribble in the pale moonlight?

Chech'tluth

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 30

Report this Jun. 20 2011, 11:49 am

Ah man I forgot his name too lol. With Soran: he was willing to blow up that star and hence the M class planet... so he can get to the nexus; Certainly selfish. But now that you mentioned it, he did speak of those losses. And unlike the borg (which I agree is the most evil) there is not one case where I can find sympathy for. And 7 and hue do not count! Because they are not part of the collective lol. Picard's clone I guess we can be sympathetic for because of his past. All 3 then cannot be labled as villains then, just the Borg. Or we could lable the 2 as villains, and the Borg super villains lol.

thekraxen

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16

Report this Jun. 22 2011, 2:08 am

because they weren't "monster of the week". the ferengi, cardassians, changlings,vorta, and jem'hadar really had good stories.

the bungalo bill

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2308

Report this Aug. 08 2011, 5:44 pm

Because ds9 has good writers and actors.


DutchPicard

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 283

Report this Aug. 11 2011, 4:52 pm

Well lets take Garak for example, in the old days he was a villain to us, but he only did what he believed in. That episode where he tortures Odo was just brilliant, you could see he didnt want to torture him. But he was so blinded by the fact he could redeem himself, He only tortured Odo to get home from the place where he was banned from. Odo forgiving him makes that episode epic IMO

Blinkn

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 232

Report this Aug. 12 2011, 12:48 pm

Personable villians make for better richer stories and it is to be expected in a show like DS9 since the assignment was stationary we were bound to see the same villians possibly over the course of the entire series like Kia Winn, Dukat, and obviously Quark.


If the the character was just flat and outright evil it would get boring, even Voyagers recurring villians like Seska, Culluh, or the Borg Queen. These baddies were only going to reappear so many time before Voyager moved out of their grasp so they could be bad.


I want to see a character that isn't labeled as 'gay' have a nice, normal romance with no hint of prejudice, no allegory and no message at all. Just put it there, like it happens all the time and no one gives a damn, which is exactly how it should be. I don't want a story about how no one understands them or how society isn't accepting, just have it happen. ~ SLagonia

DutchPicard

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 283

Report this Aug. 12 2011, 5:48 pm

And because just like in real life nothing is black and white. Gul Dukat is a bad ass, yet he has 8 childeren he loves, he loves those childeren as much as Sisko loves Jake.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum