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trek ever take a conservative view on any thing

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 12:54 pm

Quote (Kdbtrekkin @ Feb. 03 2010, 12:37 pm)
Archer put a guy in an airlock or decompression chamber and took away the air, to get info on the Xindi.

That's how Archer tortured for all who were wondering.

Ahhhh I forgot about that.

Thank you for reminding me.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 1:25 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 1:17 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 03 2010, 1:03 am)
Quote (GHOSTREK @ Jan. 30 2010, 11:47 pm)
how about startrek enterprise

archer did stuff that any other 4 captain won't do
toture people ? for one ? next to let ?two people from his command staff have sex with each other

I'm confused by this.

Are you saying Archer was the only captain to have .....

1] toture people
2] let persons of his command crew have relations???

If so you are incorrect.

Picard allowed his command crew to have relations as did Sisko and Janeway.

And I dont recall Archer toturing anyone....but Janeway pretty much did.

You listed torture here.

The thread is "trek ever take a conservative view on any thing"

You should read the post more carfully.[ no insult intended ]

GhostTrek seemed to have made that claim.

I was asking him what he ment and telling he that he was missiformed about a thing or 2.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 1:31 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 1:21 pm)
#1 I said "if"

No you said "is"

:eyesroll:

I cant see how you can claim to have missed that since I said it multiple times.

And no matter how you look at it, placing someone in a life or death situation,  knowing full well that the person is deftly afraid of that situation , soley so that you can extort information from that person....is a form or torture.

grigori

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 7:38 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 9:59 am)
Quote (grigori @ Jan. 30 2010, 6:54 pm)
It takes a conservative view on homosexuality. There are no gays in the Trek universe.

*Yank tapping fingers on desk...*

Nope, Yanks like's G too much...

Happy to be happy to disagree on this one topic--I like Yx quite a bit, too! :)

( oh, wait--are we disagreeing it's conservative to take this view or not negligent not to take this view...? never mind! :D )

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 11:19 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 7:29 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Feb. 03 2010, 1:31 pm)
Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 1:21 pm)
#1 I said "if"

No you said "is"

:eyesroll:


I cant see how you can claim to have missed that since I said it multiple times.

And no matter how you look at it, placing someone in a life or death situation, ?knowing full well that the person is deftly afraid of that situation , soley so that you can extort information from that person....is a form or torture.

I can't type :laugh:

Nuff said... :D
No prob.....neither can I.

UB313

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 11:58 pm

Quote (grigori @ Jan. 30 2010, 6:54 pm)
It takes a conservative view on homosexuality. There are no gays in the Trek universe.

Good point.

Actually there are at least three homosexual kisses. Jadzia's previous hosts' wife comes to the station. Mirror universe Kira is a rampant lesbian. And, yes, I think Kes kisses a girl at some point.

Bit cheap really: gay females on occassion, but never, never, gay males.

It struck me that if Bashir, The Doctor or Data were gay that would not have seemed incongruous at all. Actually even Sisko is a bit camp at times (not that that makes him gay, but it actually would have been quite plausible if he was!;).

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 04 2010, 3:15 am

Quote (Romulan_Star_Empire @ Feb. 02 2010, 12:40 pm)
What about that Voyager ep where Janeway denied a Q the right to euthanasia/suicide? Pro-life is usually associated with conservitive leanings.

Well, a pro-life leaning is natural for Trek.  Trek stresses the power and importance of the individual, and how sacred each life is.  An anti-euthenasia/anti-abortion stance is only natural for Trek.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 04 2010, 3:16 am

Quote (ServalanFan @ Feb. 02 2010, 3:31 am)
Quote (grigori @ Jan. 31 2010, 6:33 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Jan. 30 2010, 11:10 pm)
Quote (grigori @ Jan. 30 2010, 1:57 am)
Quote (SLagonia @ Jan. 30 2010, 10:47 pm)
And besides, the way that none of them care about how close they are with members of the same sex implies that such things are not a concern anymore.

That's how I prefer to see the Trek universe, of course, and I sure hope most of us see it like that, but gay folks are a bit conspicuous by their absence in Trek.

The writers of Trek would have a hard time casually working a gay character in at this point--but of course we'd WANT it to be casual and natural, and not restrict the character to being an "issue". But it feels like they missed the moment on this one.

See, therein lies the issue. ?When you create a gay character, then that will inevitably become his defining characteristic. ?Look at Hidden Frontier - They added a gay character, and every episode he's shaking up with one of the men. ?Why? ?Because when your character has only one dimension, and it's a dimension you want to show off, then it gets trumped up.

The way to work it into a character is to simply write an episode with a hetero-sexual relationship, and then just switch the gender of the other character. ?This way, you assure yourself that you won't be making too much out of it, or that you will treat it any differently than if they were of the opposite sex. ?I don't want to hear about how no one understands or how being of the same sex is somehow a wedge driving them apart or anything like that. ?I just want to see a character not care what the person's gender is.

Very well-said. I agree it's a double-bind, but even more-so now, since they should've had a matter-of-fact gay crewman years ago. They've tackled everything else, and that's why we like it.

But introducing one now would look MORE like jumping on the band-wagon and having a token. I think there was a moment in time when Trek could've led the way with a crewman who happened to be gay, instead of a gay person who became a Trek crewman.

The DS9 Mirror episode had some same-sex pairings, an episode in Voyager when some entity took over Kes' body had some girl-girl kissing I think.
However these exceptions prove the rule that there weren't any real gay or bisexual relationships in Star Trek. It's probably the conservative American south that the producers are afraid of.
Doctor Who and Torchwood have many gay/bisexual pairings/references (maybe too many) and are still going strong.

Yes, but they were all evil.

Apparently gay=evil in Trek.

Nuadha

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Report this Feb. 04 2010, 9:09 am

I'd say that the Mirror Universe Kirk was a pretty good conservative.   "Give us your dilithium crystals (oil) or we will bomb you."

coloradochaz

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Report this Feb. 14 2010, 9:59 am

A touch of political humor: if "pro" is the opposite of "con", then progress must be the opposite of congress.  :laugh:

Pooneil

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Report this Feb. 16 2010, 2:17 pm

Well, "All Gays Are Evil Campy Villains" might be a conservative stance.

Odo read Mickey Spillane's novels: the hero, Mike Hammer, was an enthusiastic enemy of communists and liberals and a red-blooded defender of McCarthyist American values. That's pretty darn conservative. On the other hand, Odo also read Dashiell Hammett, a guy who was blacklisted by the same folks who loved Spillane. Whether on not Hammett was actually a communist, I'm not sure.

The end of "The Host" was a bit conservative, as were the messages of "Rejoined" and "Chimera". Other episodes, like "The Outcast" or "Half a Life" basically reinforced the status quo while espousing respect for alien cultures. Most of the time the writers managed to create an interesting dialogue between different points of view, without being preachy.

Being against euthanasia is not "pro-life" -- it's anti-choice. A person has a right to end his own life, whether it's Worf ("Ethics"), Kurn ("Sons of Mogh"), or Q ("Death Wish"). I'm almost positive that there's another episode out there that deals with the subject more directly, but I can't think of it.

Every time Quark gives a speech glorifying libertarian Ferengi values, that's conservative. And you can tell some of the writers are on board. I thought a lot of the war stuff on DS9 had a conservative ring to it, especially when Section 31 was involved. They tried to have it both ways on that one: having Bashir condemn Section 31's tactics, while allowing Admiral Ross or whoever to monologue about the necessity of a secret espionage group, and not coming to any conclusion.

grigori

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Report this Feb. 16 2010, 5:46 pm

Quote (Pooneil @ Feb. 16 2010, 2:17 pm)
The end of "The Host" was a bit conservative, as were the messages of "Rejoined" and "Chimera". Other episodes, like "The Outcast" or "Half a Life" basically reinforced the status quo while espousing respect for alien cultures. Most of the time the writers managed to create an interesting dialogue between different points of view, without being preachy.

Nice pertinent examples, Pooneil, to remind us of.

Man, I love your Avatar! Haven't seen it before. It might be one I might wanna scam for awhile, just to mix it up with the one I already have (the early sailing vessel Enterprise from Archer's ready room). But I wouldn't do that if we kept crossing paths. :)

fooledagain

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Report this Feb. 16 2010, 9:54 pm

Well there was the time that Kirk's professor set up a Nazi regime on another planet because it was "the most efficient form of government." Sorry conservatives, I know that some of you aren't Nazis.

SLagonia

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Report this Feb. 16 2010, 11:37 pm

Quote (Pooneil @ Feb. 15 2010, 5:17 pm)
Well, "All Gays Are Evil Campy Villains" might be a conservative stance.

I don't see why - Niether party is interested in gay rights, so an anti-gay stance isn't conservitive.

Quote

The end of "The Host" was a bit conservative, as were the messages of "Rejoined" and "Chimera". Other episodes, like "The Outcast" or "Half a Life" basically reinforced the status quo while espousing respect for alien cultures. Most of the time the writers managed to create an interesting dialogue between different points of view, without being preachy.


I'm not really sure how any of those are conservitive viewpoints.  Care to elaborate?

Quote

Every time Quark gives a speech glorifying libertarian Ferengi values, that's conservative. And you can tell some of the writers are on board. I thought a lot of the war stuff on DS9 had a conservative ring to it, especially when Section 31 was involved. They tried to have it both ways on that one: having Bashir condemn Section 31's tactics, while allowing Admiral Ross or whoever to monologue about the necessity of a secret espionage group, and not coming to any conclusion.


Well first of all, the episodes always took a stance that the Ferengi had an incorrect viewpoint.  Really, this doesn't mean a whole lot to our modern politics, since the economics of the future are so different that we could not hope to duplicate them.

As for Section 31, the show never took the standpoint that they were right, and either way, I fail to see why they would be considered conservitive.

Pooneil

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Report this Feb. 20 2010, 8:07 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Feb. 16 2010, 11:37 pm)
Quote (Pooneil @ Feb. 15 2010, 5:17 pm)
Well, "All Gays Are Evil Campy Villains" might be a conservative stance.

I don't see why - Niether party is interested in gay rights, so an anti-gay stance isn't conservitive.

Quote

The end of "The Host" was a bit conservative, as were the messages of "Rejoined" and "Chimera". Other episodes, like "The Outcast" or "Half a Life" basically reinforced the status quo while espousing respect for alien cultures. Most of the time the writers managed to create an interesting dialogue between different points of view, without being preachy.


I'm not really sure how any of those are conservitive viewpoints. ¿Care to elaborate?

Quote

Every time Quark gives a speech glorifying libertarian Ferengi values, that's conservative. And you can tell some of the writers are on board. I thought a lot of the war stuff on DS9 had a conservative ring to it, especially when Section 31 was involved. They tried to have it both ways on that one: having Bashir condemn Section 31's tactics, while allowing Admiral Ross or whoever to monologue about the necessity of a secret espionage group, and not coming to any conclusion.


Well first of all, the episodes always took a stance that the Ferengi had an incorrect viewpoint. ¿Really, this doesn't mean a whole lot to our modern politics, since the economics of the future are so different that we could not hope to duplicate them.

As for Section 31, the show never took the standpoint that they were right, and either way, I fail to see why they would be considered conservitive.

I'm proceeding from the definition of "conservative" as the opposite of "progressive", i.e. traditional cultural values and economic competition. Quark's speeches were frequently delivered with the implicit support of the writers (check out "The Jem'hadar" or "The Siege of AR-558"); libertarianism is a conservative philosophy.

Odo's fondness for the novels of Mickey Spillane can be read as an endorsement, much as the presence of Vic Fontaine can be seen as the writers saying "We like lounge music."

The stances taken by the other episodes I listed are all reinforcements of current American cultural values -- inherently a conservative point of view. A more progressive approach would be to point out the shortcomings of modern American culture, and celebrate the alternatives.

By "euthanasia" I probably meant to write "assisted suicide" which is the topic of the three episodes I mentioned ("Ethics", "Sons of Mogh", "Death Wish"). Suicide is a choice, and anyone with an interest in individual rights would not deny a terminally ill person the right to end his own life.

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