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trek ever take a conservative view on any thing

Mirrorgirl

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 5:08 am

I guess it all depends on what you consider conservative.:logical:

CultOfByron

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 7:09 am

Since the very existence of the Enterprise is to uphold and defend a very large organisation/ideology, I'd say the original series overall is conservatistic (politically).  The local actions required to maintain the status quo of the Federation however are often cast as renegade (breaking the prime directive etc...).

One episode of TOS that stands out for me as politically conservative is "The Omega Glory".  Both in the sense of it being an (albeit VERY thinly veiled to the point of there not being a veil!;) allegory and in the actual events of the story; it's effectively American propaganda and not really progressive other than as an attempt to show that 'other' cultures would only be seen to progress when they adopt a particularly 1960's American brand of liberalism.

Another episode that springs to mind as being rather conservative is the treatment of counter-cultural radicals in "The Way To Eden".  As an allegory it portrays 'hippies' as tricksterish and childish (rather than child-like), Kirk is shown for the most part in this episode as rather fuddy-duddy compared with Spock, who 'reaches' the guests and Chekov who, due to contractual necessities, takes Kirk's place as the snoggee. ***Aside - Chekov's predicament in this episode is a very engaging sub-plot***
But ultimately, the episode serves as a warning about would be cultural revolutionaries in that they're either mad or naive and deluded.

I've been a bit unfair to the Original Series here I know in saying that it was, for the most part, conservative.  In this regard it has not aged well as a progressive text, relying on the alien character of Spock to make a lot of the more progressive social and philosophical statements, and therefore making them relatively harmless.  BUT the show was making such statements, and those with open ears would be listening!

I could go on with movies and four other series to consider... I'll get back to you ;)

It's perhaps the nature of a large organisation in relation to the alien and unpredictable to be conservative...?

SLagonia

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 7:57 am

Actually, it happens quite often.  I don't think Trek is really a liberal or conservitive show.  It certainly is on the left more than the right, but almost all TV is.  There's nothing that makes Trek special in that reguard.

grigori

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 6:54 pm

It takes a conservative view on homosexuality. There are no gays in the Trek universe.

SLagonia

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 10:47 pm

Quote (grigori @ Jan. 29 2010, 9:54 pm)
It takes a conservative view on homosexuality. There are no gays in the Trek universe.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.  How many people have we seen enough of to know they're heterosexual?

And besides, the way that none of them care about how close they are with members of the same sex implies that such things are not a concern anymore.

I'd also like to note that this isn't a conservitive outlook, since niether party cares much about civil rights for gay people.

grigori

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 10:57 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Jan. 30 2010, 10:47 pm)
And besides, the way that none of them care about how close they are with members of the same sex implies that such things are not a concern anymore.

That's how I prefer to see the Trek universe, of course, and I sure hope most of us see it like that, but gay folks are a bit conspicuous by their absence in Trek.

The writers of Trek would have a hard time casually working a gay character in at this point--but of course we'd WANT it to be casual and natural, and not restrict the character to being an "issue". But it feels like they missed the moment on this one.

SLagonia

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 11:10 pm

Quote (grigori @ Jan. 30 2010, 1:57 am)
Quote (SLagonia @ Jan. 30 2010, 10:47 pm)
And besides, the way that none of them care about how close they are with members of the same sex implies that such things are not a concern anymore.

That's how I prefer to see the Trek universe, of course, and I sure hope most of us see it like that, but gay folks are a bit conspicuous by their absence in Trek.

The writers of Trek would have a hard time casually working a gay character in at this point--but of course we'd WANT it to be casual and natural, and not restrict the character to being an "issue". But it feels like they missed the moment on this one.

See, therein lies the issue.  When you create a gay character, then that will inevitably become his defining characteristic.  Look at Hidden Frontier - They added a gay character, and every episode he's shaking up with one of the men.  Why?  Because when your character has only one dimension, and it's a dimension you want to show off, then it gets trumped up.

The way to work it into a character is to simply write an episode with a hetero-sexual relationship, and then just switch the gender of the other character.  This way, you assure yourself that you won't be making too much out of it, or that you will treat it any differently than if they were of the opposite sex.  I don't want to hear about how no one understands or how being of the same sex is somehow a wedge driving them apart or anything like that.  I just want to see a character not care what the person's gender is.

SLagonia

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Report this Jan. 30 2010, 11:53 pm

Quote (GHOSTREK @ Jan. 30 2010, 2:47 am)
Quote (CultOfByron @ Jan. 29 2010, 9:09 am)
Since the very existence of the Enterprise is to uphold and defend a very large organisation/ideology, I'd say the original series overall is conservatistic (politically). ?The local actions required to maintain the status quo of the Federation however are often cast as renegade (breaking the prime directive etc...).

One episode of TOS that stands out for me as politically conservative is "The Omega Glory". ?Both in the sense of it being an (albeit VERY thinly veiled to the point of there not being a veil!;) allegory and in the actual events of the story; it's effectively American propaganda and not really progressive other than as an attempt to show that 'other' cultures would only be seen to progress when they adopt a particularly 1960's American brand of liberalism.

Another episode that springs to mind as being rather conservative is the treatment of counter-cultural radicals in "The Way To Eden". ?As an allegory it portrays 'hippies' as tricksterish and childish (rather than child-like), Kirk is shown for the most part in this episode as rather fuddy-duddy compared with Spock, who 'reaches' the guests and Chekov who, due to contractual necessities, takes Kirk's place as the snoggee. ***Aside - Chekov's predicament in this episode is a very engaging sub-plot***
But ultimately, the episode serves as a warning about would be cultural revolutionaries in that they're either mad or naive and deluded.

I've been a bit unfair to the Original Series here I know in saying that it was, for the most part, conservative. ?In this regard it has not aged well as a progressive text, relying on the alien character of Spock to make a lot of the more progressive social and philosophical statements, and therefore making them relatively harmless. ?BUT the show was making such statements, and those with open ears would be listening!

I could go on with movies and four other series to consider... I'll get back to you ;)

It's perhaps the nature of a large organisation in relation to the alien and unpredictable to be conservative...?

how about startrek enterprise

archer did stuff that any other 4 captain won't do
toture people ? for one ¿ next to let ¿two people from his command staff have sex with each other

Well, Janeway did torture that one guy in Equinox.

grigori

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Report this Jan. 31 2010, 6:33 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Jan. 30 2010, 11:10 pm)
Quote (grigori @ Jan. 30 2010, 1:57 am)
Quote (SLagonia @ Jan. 30 2010, 10:47 pm)
And besides, the way that none of them care about how close they are with members of the same sex implies that such things are not a concern anymore.

That's how I prefer to see the Trek universe, of course, and I sure hope most of us see it like that, but gay folks are a bit conspicuous by their absence in Trek.

The writers of Trek would have a hard time casually working a gay character in at this point--but of course we'd WANT it to be casual and natural, and not restrict the character to being an "issue". But it feels like they missed the moment on this one.

See, therein lies the issue. ¿When you create a gay character, then that will inevitably become his defining characteristic. ¿Look at Hidden Frontier - They added a gay character, and every episode he's shaking up with one of the men. ¿Why? ¿Because when your character has only one dimension, and it's a dimension you want to show off, then it gets trumped up.

The way to work it into a character is to simply write an episode with a hetero-sexual relationship, and then just switch the gender of the other character. ¿This way, you assure yourself that you won't be making too much out of it, or that you will treat it any differently than if they were of the opposite sex. ¿I don't want to hear about how no one understands or how being of the same sex is somehow a wedge driving them apart or anything like that. ¿I just want to see a character not care what the person's gender is.

Very well-said. I agree it's a double-bind, but even more-so now, since they should've had a matter-of-fact gay crewman years ago. They've tackled everything else, and that's why we like it.

But introducing one now would look MORE like jumping on the band-wagon and having a token. I think there was a moment in time when Trek could've led the way with a crewman who happened to be gay, instead of a gay person who became a Trek crewman.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 1:03 am

Quote (GHOSTREK @ Jan. 30 2010, 11:47 pm)
how about startrek enterprise

archer did stuff that any other 4 captain won't do
toture people ? for one ¿ next to let ¿two people from his command staff have sex with each other

I'm confused by this.

Are you saying Archer was the only captain to have .....

1] toture people
2] let persons of his command crew have relations???

If so you are incorrect.

Picard allowed his command crew to have relations as did Sisko and Janeway.

And I dont recall Archer toturing anyone....but Janeway pretty much did.

Romulan_Star_Empire

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 9:40 am

What about that Voyager ep where Janeway denied a Q the right to euthanasia/suicide? Pro-life is usually associated with conservitive leanings.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 10:24 am

Quote (Romulan_Star_Empire @ Feb. 03 2010, 9:40 am)
What about that Voyager ep where Janeway denied a Q the right to euthanasia/suicide? Pro-life is usually associated with conservitive leanings.

She actully did not deny him the right at all.

She just tried to talk him out of it.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 10:28 am

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 10:03 am)
You are wrong to link "torture" as a conservative value.

Whos wrong????

Quote
Janeway torture? Anyone know what episode(s)?


I said "pretty much" and the episode was Equinox.

Kdbtrekkin

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 12:37 pm

Archer put a guy in an airlock or decompression chamber and took away the air, to get info on the Xindi.

That's how Archer tortured for all who were wondering.

stovokor2000

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Report this Feb. 03 2010, 12:53 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Feb. 03 2010, 11:45 am)
Easy big boy...

Sit down, have a donut and cup of coffee.

I dont drink coffe and I'm diabetic so I cant have a donut.

And I am by no means excited or in need of sitting down and taking it easy

I simply asked you who you were talking to when you said "your wrong".

Quote
Equinox... great great episode. Care to elaborate how she tortured?


Yes great episode.

And for the 3rd time I said "pretty much tortured".

And Janeway did so by thjreating to let that guy get killed by the aliens.

torture by definition is :any method of causing severe pain or anguish,physical or mental, as a means of punishment or coercion.

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