ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Question about Kirk & Spock in TMP & TWOK

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 1:03 pm

Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 27 2010, 12:01 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 10:50 am)
Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 26 2010, 8:28 pm)
I agree that the jump from TMP to TWOK isn't smooth. I like the fanon explanations though, they almost make me believe.

Why only "almost"?

:logical:

The fanon explanations are possible but not really that likely IMO. ?

I just don't think Kirk would have gone back into an administrative role in Starfleet after his unhappy experiences there after the first 5-year mission had completed. I thought that's what TMP was about - Kirk regaining his captaincy his first best destiny. Then TWOK comes about and he's in the same position he was at the beginning of TMP.

I think Kirk went back to serving as an Admiral because 1.  Retirement didn't work for him and 2.  He was trying to act his age.  

In TMP, he got his command back and he was a younger man of about 38-39 years old (in reality, Shatner was in his early 50s I believe).  He probably felt that it was time for him to settle down.  Heck, he essentially says that in TWOK.  He also probably thought he didn't have any right after getting the Enterprise back once to getting it back again.  

I honestly don't see a discrepency here.  The difference between TMP and TWOK, really, is Kirk's age, which was one of the primary themes of TWOK.

Quote

However, something did happen to make them take these roles and at the beginning of TWOK Kirk was an administrative admiral and Spock a teaching Captain. And that's canon no matter what I think.


Just as that reporter's comment in GEN indicates that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for years after TMP is canon as well.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 1:07 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 12:53 pm)
Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 12:46 pm)
Well, as I showed in my post, the reporter's question in GEN to Kirk pretty much validates Kirk's command of the Enterprise for years after TMP. ?It's canon. ?

That line was probably put in by the Okudas themselves or by Ron Moore and Braga on consulting their chronology. ?

Either way, it's canon. ?Kirk was in command of the Enterprise for most of the time between TMP and TWOK. ?

I've read the Okudas chronology and what their times are based on, where they used the spoken references in the films and did their best to arrange dates based on these. ?I do know that Morrow's comment about the age of the Enterprise doesn't work for their chronology. ?The Enterprise needs to be much older. ?Other than that, I don't think there are any other problems with their chronology. ?It sinks up with all the references in the films.

I think opening night of TWOK, most at-that-point longtime fans went "Huh?" when Morrow said 20 years...since even at that point, "The Cage" alone would invalidate that remark even if you don't believe Robert April was captain of the ship before Pike.

:logical:

That's what I thought. ¿The Cage/Menagerie pretty much invalidates Morrow's comment. ¿April isn't even necessary.

Quote

And I really don't think the reporters in GEN were referring to the period between TMP and TWOK, I believe they were referring to the years between TUC and GEN.



Why do you think that? ¿Only a few years, like 2-3, are between TUC and GEN. ¿I believe the Okudas were consulted or their chronology was used for GEN. ¿They've pinned down exactly when GEN was to take place after TUC, and it's definitely not many years at all.  Again, if you look at my previous calculations, you have 15.5 years of Kirk in command of the Enterprise or the Ent-A.  Most of that has got to be between TMP and TWOK.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 1:44 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:07 pm)> id="QUOTE">:logical:
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:13 pm)

Ok, so when does Kirk retire and come back to SF then?  

After TUC?   If that's the case, why would that one reporter ask him what he's been doing during retirement?  Why does Scotty ask him if he's lonely during his retirement?  

That doesn't make sense.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 2:10 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:44 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:13 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:07 pm)> id="QUOTE">:logical:
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:59 pm)

Ok, so when does Kirk retire and come back to SF then? ?

After TUC? ? If that's the case, why would that one reporter ask him what he's been doing during retirement? ?Why does Scotty ask him if he's lonely during his retirement? ?

That doesn't make sense.

Kirk more than likely retired after the Enterprise-A was decommissioned...after all, what would Kirk do, around 60 years old, still a Captain, not much chance of ever being promoted back to the Admiralty...and his ship's been retired.

Would have been the perfect time for Kirk to fall into a romance...

But then the stars called again...and Kirk came back to Starfleet. And apparently recently.

But in fairness, if I get a chance I'll have to check that scene...

:logical:
He was indeed retired after TUC. ?Remember they were all going to be de-commissioned? ?Also, again, a reporter asked him in GEN what he was up to during retirement and Scotty asked him if he was finding retirement lonely. ?These comments indicate that one, Kirk was retired and not active again with SF and 2, he wasn't with Antonia. ?

That's why the Okudas concluded that Kirk had to have retired once before based on his comments to Picard in the Nexus in GEN. ?The only place that can occur is between TMP and TWOK. ?And, again, from the other reporter's question, we know that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for years after TMP. ?Therefore, in the few years (<= 5) before TWOK, Kirk left SF and retired the first time, just like Spock and McCoy had done after the original 5 year mission. ?

It's really the only, or, at least, the most logical sequencing for these events based on all these time references in the films.

Mirrorgirl

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 15692

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 2:46 pm

I'm glad to see this thread thriving...:cool:

*MG grabs a cup of tea and a biscuit and settles in for a catch up read through the latest posts*

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 2:48 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 2:10 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:59 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:44 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:13 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 1:07 pm)> id="QUOTE">:logical:
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 2:20 pm)

Ok, so when does Kirk retire and come back to SF then? ?

After TUC? ? If that's the case, why would that one reporter ask him what he's been doing during retirement? ?Why does Scotty ask him if he's lonely during his retirement? ?

That doesn't make sense.
Kirk more than likely retired after the Enterprise-A was decommissioned...after all, what would Kirk do, around 60 years old, still a Captain, not much chance of ever being promoted back to the Admiralty...and his ship's been retired.

Would have been the perfect time for Kirk to fall into a romance...

But then the stars called again...and Kirk came back to Starfleet. And apparently recently.

But in fairness, if I get a chance I'll have to check that scene...

:logical:
He was indeed retired after TUC. ?Remember they were all going to be de-commissioned? ?Also, again, a reporter asked him in GEN what he was up to during retirement and Scotty asked him if he was finding retirement lonely. ?These comments indicate that one, Kirk was retired and not active again with SF and 2, he wasn't with Antonia. ?

That's why the Okudas concluded that Kirk had to have retired once before based on his comments to Picard in the Nexus in GEN. ?The only place that can occur is between TMP and TWOK. ?And, again, from the other reporter's question, we know that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for years after TMP. ?Therefore, in the few years (<= 5) before TWOK, Kirk left SF and retired the first time, just like Spock and McCoy had done after the original 5 year mission. ?

It's really the only, or, at least, the most logical sequencing for these events based on all these time references in the films.
If you think about it, Kirk could have also retired between STV and STVI...

:logical:
I need to think about that, but that seems possible, but, imo, unlikely. ¿There was no mention of any retirement by Kirk at the beginning of TUC. ¿On the contrary, you got the impression that he and his crew had been together for the years between TFF and TUC and were, instead, getting ready to retire.

Why would he retire after TFF after recently getting his command back in TVH?  Why would he leave Antonia and come back to SF then, only to face an impending (mandatory?) retirement again?!?!?  That doesn't make sense.

Nope, putting Kirk's first retirement between TFF and TUC doesn't make sense to me. ¿I think the Okudas put it in the only place that makes sense based on what was said onscreen.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 2:53 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 2:16 pm)
Quote (SeerSGB @ Jan. 27 2010, 2:05 pm)
There's at least three onscreen ships that could be the 1701-A-- discounting the Ti-Ho/new build theory.

USS Excalibur -- We don't know here fate post "Ultimate Computer', but she could have been stuck in mothballs, and just left there till the refit program. ?Given the techonolog in flux aspect of the move era-- the TMP refit then the tech jump to Excelsior and then we get into the buggy 1701-A-- she could have been hauled out to use as a test bed ship.

USS Hood -- Same deal as Excalibur, without the same death toll.

USS Exeter -- We don't get a post Omgea Gory fate for this ship (IRC), another possible ship shoved into the scrapyard and hauled out for testbeds.

Then there is the currently accepted theory/canon/default:

USS Yorktown -- Calls back to the original development of Star Trek, plus it fits with the naming scheme from the TOS era for the connies. Given that it was Gene's susgestion, I think we can just accept this as the 1701-A.

I have the feeling just to err on the side of safety, the Exeter was probably destroyed rather than risk any chance of anything from Omega IV still being viable.



:logical:

I don't think that would be a problem.  They had a cure, didn't they?  McCoy found that there were elements of the planet that gave people an immunity.  

And, with 23rd century technology they could easily decontaminate the vessel.  I don't see why the Exeter would have to be destroyed (although it definitely wouldn't have a good rep after what happened there).

As for the Excalibur, that ship got the biggest beating from M5, didn't it?  I've seen interpretations on what it looked like afterwards in my ships of the line calendar.  That ship must've been pretty much destroyed, so I think you can knock it off as a possibilility for the Ent-A.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 27 2010, 4:24 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 3:37 pm)
Quote (rocketscientist @ Jan. 27 2010, 2:48 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 27 2010, 2:20 pm)

If you think about it, Kirk could have also retired between STV and STVI...

:logical:

I need to think about that, but that seems possible, but, imo, unlikely. ?There was no mention of any retirement by Kirk at the beginning of TUC. ?On the contrary, you got the impression that he and his crew had been together for the years between TFF and TUC and were, instead, getting ready to retire.

Why would he retire after TFF after recently getting his command back in TVH? ?Why would he leave Antonia and come back to SF then, only to face an impending (mandatory?) retirement again?!?!? ?That doesn't make sense.

Nope, putting Kirk's first retirement between TFF and TUC doesn't make sense to me. ?I think the Okudas put it in the only place that makes sense based on what was said onscreen.

There's a few years between STIV and STV, I believe...they don't follow in sequence like II-IV did.

:logical:

Yes, they do. ¿TFF is no more than a few weeks after TVH as per Scotty's comment in Spacedock. ¿Between TWOK and TFF, there is no more than 3 or four months, most of it between TSFS and TVH as per Kirk's log at the beginning of that film.

Like I said, TSFS, TVH, and TFF are direct sequels to TWOK and the time from beginning to end is around four months.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum