ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Question about Kirk & Spock in TMP & TWOK

exeter276

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 190

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 12:14 pm

I have been watching The Motion Picture lately (yes it still holds up) and had a question about Kirk & Spocks' career path choices they seem to have made between the two films. TMP has Kirk head of Starfleet Operations and Spock on Vulcan preparing to take the Kolinahr. Now Spock halts the Kolinahr process because he has a calling from space known as V'ger. Kirk gets his old command back and as he tells Scotty "They gave her back to me". Now with that said my questions are as follows.

1. Why didn't Kirk keep his command of his one true love the Enterprise? He was bored at Starfleet Operations and saved the galaxy enough times to keep his command don't you think.

2. Spock never intended to return to Starfleet and while V'ger forced Spock to seek this calling, why was Spock the new Captain of the Enterprise in TWOK? As I stated Spock returned to Starfleet only over the V'ger crisis, and one would believe that he would resign his commission and return to Vulcan after V'ger crisis was over, not be promoted to Captain and train cadets at his age.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 12:22 pm

Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 12:14 pm)
1. Why didn't Kirk keep his command of his one true love the Enterprise? He was bored at Starfleet Operations and saved the galaxy enough times to keep his command don't you think.

The promotion may have seemed like a good idea at the time.

Maybe his suppressors forced it on him.

Quote
2. Spock never intended to return to Starfleet and while V'ger forced Spock to seek this calling, why was Spock the new Captain of the Enterprise in TWOK? As I stated Spock returned to Starfleet only over the V'ger crisis, and one would believe that he would resign his commission and return to Vulcan after V'ger crisis was over, not be promoted to Captain and train cadets at his age.


I got the impression he wanted to be there.

Captain_Venkman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 330

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 2:09 pm

I always get the impression that TWOK was written with the view that TMP had never happened. I don't know why I feel that, but the movie has a couple of things that make me feel like TMP is being ignored.

Most notable to me is the change in McCoy. In TMP he's very critical of Kirk wanting his command back and calls it his obsession. In TWOK he's the one pointing out to Kirk that he needs to get his command back or risk being a has-been.

exeter276

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 190

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 3:02 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:38 pm)
Kirk was essentially forced off the bridge of the Enterprise by Starfleet after the five year mission...he was a hero and a success story and Starfleet didn't want him going off and getting killed. Pinning Admiral's stars on him and giving him essentially command of the fleet was his "reward" for being a hero.

Remember there are a number of years between ST:TMP and STII:TWOK. According to fanon, Kirk was sent off on another 5 year mission after TMP and at the end of that he agreed to become Commandant of Cadets at Starfleet Academy, where we find him in STII. Spock, knowing where Kirk truly belonged, agreed to take command of the Enterprise when it was reassigned as an Academy Training Vessel and felt he was basically keeping Kirk's command chair warm for him, knowing full well that one day Kirk would come back home.

McCoy in TMP is concerned because Kirk's blind focus on getting command of the Enterprise back was clouding his better judgement, and causing Kirk to view allies as potential enemies and making him not think things through properly. Recall from TOS, Kirk does have obsessive tendancies. By TWOK, Kirk has seemed to become resigned to the fact that his days of being allowed to command a ship are probably slipping away, and McCoy knows that Jim Kirk without the Starship Enterprise under his feet was a shell of a man.

:logical:

But if the Enterprise was being used to train cadets why would Spock assume he was keeping Kirk's Captains chair warm for him? Wouldn't you agree that when a Starship is regulated to training it's days of service are about over and mothballs is the next progression for the Enterprise. With that said Spock would have to assume there would be no ship for Kirk to return to unless he wanted to be a museum curator.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 3:36 pm

Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:38 pm)
Kirk was essentially forced off the bridge of the Enterprise by Starfleet after the five year mission...he was a hero and a success story and Starfleet didn't want him going off and getting killed. Pinning Admiral's stars on him and giving him essentially command of the fleet was his "reward" for being a hero.

Remember there are a number of years between ST:TMP and STII:TWOK. According to fanon, Kirk was sent off on another 5 year mission after TMP and at the end of that he agreed to become Commandant of Cadets at Starfleet Academy, where we find him in STII. Spock, knowing where Kirk truly belonged, agreed to take command of the Enterprise when it was reassigned as an Academy Training Vessel and felt he was basically keeping Kirk's command chair warm for him, knowing full well that one day Kirk would come back home.

McCoy in TMP is concerned because Kirk's blind focus on getting command of the Enterprise back was clouding his better judgement, and causing Kirk to view allies as potential enemies and making him not think things through properly. Recall from TOS, Kirk does have obsessive tendancies. By TWOK, Kirk has seemed to become resigned to the fact that his days of being allowed to command a ship are probably slipping away, and McCoy knows that Jim Kirk without the Starship Enterprise under his feet was a shell of a man.

:logical:

But if the Enterprise was being used to train cadets why would Spock assume he was keeping Kirk's Captains chair warm for him? Wouldn't you agree that when a Starship is regulated to training it's days of service are about over and mothballs is the next progression for the Enterprise. With that said Spock would have to assume there would be no ship for Kirk to return to unless he wanted to be a museum curator.

That might bne the most logical way to look at it.But remember......even Spock said he has the ability to see past just pure logic.

He has fate in  destiny....and he felt it was Kirks destiny to command a starship again.

And BTW, Enterprise wasnt relegated to training service.

It was assigned to the academy to train a new crew for her.So once all those cadets were fdully trained in her operations she was going to be sent out with her new crew on a new  mission.

Captain_Venkman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 330

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 3:44 pm

Well we see in TSFS which takes place within a week after the events of TWOK that the Enterprise is to be decommissioned. So I don't think the idea of Spock minding the Enterprise works that well.

I just get the impression that Paramount didn't like TMP that much and totally disregarded it, leaving people to create "fanon" to explain the differences in the characters between the two films.

exeter276

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 190

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 3:49 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:36 pm)
Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:38 pm)
Kirk was essentially forced off the bridge of the Enterprise by Starfleet after the five year mission...he was a hero and a success story and Starfleet didn't want him going off and getting killed. Pinning Admiral's stars on him and giving him essentially command of the fleet was his "reward" for being a hero.

Remember there are a number of years between ST:TMP and STII:TWOK. According to fanon, Kirk was sent off on another 5 year mission after TMP and at the end of that he agreed to become Commandant of Cadets at Starfleet Academy, where we find him in STII. Spock, knowing where Kirk truly belonged, agreed to take command of the Enterprise when it was reassigned as an Academy Training Vessel and felt he was basically keeping Kirk's command chair warm for him, knowing full well that one day Kirk would come back home.

McCoy in TMP is concerned because Kirk's blind focus on getting command of the Enterprise back was clouding his better judgement, and causing Kirk to view allies as potential enemies and making him not think things through properly. Recall from TOS, Kirk does have obsessive tendancies. By TWOK, Kirk has seemed to become resigned to the fact that his days of being allowed to command a ship are probably slipping away, and McCoy knows that Jim Kirk without the Starship Enterprise under his feet was a shell of a man.

:logical:

But if the Enterprise was being used to train cadets why would Spock assume he was keeping Kirk's Captains chair warm for him? Wouldn't you agree that when a Starship is regulated to training it's days of service are about over and mothballs is the next progression for the Enterprise. With that said Spock would have to assume there would be no ship for Kirk to return to unless he wanted to be a museum curator.

That might bne the most logical way to look at it.But remember......even Spock said he has the ability to see past just pure logic.

He has fate in ¿destiny....and he felt it was Kirks destiny to command a starship again.

And BTW, Enterprise wasnt relegated to training service.

It was assigned to the academy to train a new crew for her.So once all those cadets were fdully trained in her operations she was going to be sent out with her new crew on a new ¿mission.

Stovokor-

I must respectfully disagree. The Enterprise couldn't be training a new crew for her with new missions because in Star Trek III TSFS Fleet Admiral Morrow told Kirk there would be no refit and the Enterprise's active duty days were over. Hence Mr. Scott being reassigned to head of engineering of the Excelsior.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 4:06 pm

Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 12:14 pm)
I have been watching The Motion Picture lately (yes it still holds up) and had a question about Kirk & Spocks' career path choices they seem to have made between the two films. TMP has Kirk head of Starfleet Operations and Spock on Vulcan preparing to take the Kolinahr. Now Spock halts the Kolinahr process because he has a calling from space known as V'ger. Kirk gets his old command back and as he tells Scotty "They gave her back to me". Now with that said my questions are as follows.

1. Why didn't Kirk keep his command of his one true love the Enterprise? He was bored at Starfleet Operations and saved the galaxy enough times to keep his command don't you think.

2. Spock never intended to return to Starfleet and while V'ger forced Spock to seek this calling, why was Spock the new Captain of the Enterprise in TWOK? As I stated Spock returned to Starfleet only over the V'ger crisis, and one would believe that he would resign his commission and return to Vulcan after V'ger crisis was over, not be promoted to Captain and train cadets at his age.

1. The amount of time that took place between TWOK and TMP suggests (and is verified in "unofficial canon" in sources like Okuda's "Star Trek Encyclopedia" and "Star Trek Chronology") that Kirk and crew embarked on a SECOND 5-year mission immediately following the events of TMP. I think it's safe to assume that Kirk was again promoted to Admiral after the success of that second mission and put in charge of training the future high-potential leaders in Starfleet.

2. Spock's encounter with V'Ger led him to understand that THIS was ultimately his place. He had no intention of going back to the Kolinahr Discipline after his "moment of clarity."

"We can have ye back on Vulcan in 4 days Mr. Spock."

"Unnecessary Mr. Scott. My task on Vulcan is...complete."


He never intended to return to Vulcan. He "found what he was looking for" as Kirk put it in the film.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 4:12 pm

Quote (Captain_Venkman @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:09 pm)
I always get the impression that TWOK was written with the view that TMP had never happened. I don't know why I feel that, but the movie has a couple of things that make me feel like TMP is being ignored.

Most notable to me is the change in McCoy. In TMP he's very critical of Kirk wanting his command back and calls it his obsession. In TWOK he's the one pointing out to Kirk that he needs to get his command back or risk being a has-been.

Absolutely not. A great deal of time has passed between TMP and TWOK.

Kirk hasn't "logged a single star hour in 2 1/2 years" according to Decker in TMP.

Kirk says in TWOK "There's a man out there I haven't seen in 15 years who is trying to kill me."

That means that approximately 8-10 years has passed between the two films. There's no reason to assume that any of the issues that existed in the first film would still be on the table for discussion a decade later.

McCoy's complaints were not centered around Kirk wanting to get the ship back. His complaints were around the MANNER in which he went about that task:

"It's an obsession that can blind you to far more immediate and critical responsibilities!"

McCoy, under NORMAL circumstances probably would have fully supported Kirk's career choice to get back in the captain's chair. You have to remember that McCoy in TMP was drafted back into the service and had nearly just been killed by Kirk's practical incompetence with the redesign of the phaser systems.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 4:15 pm

Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:49 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:36 pm)
Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:38 pm)
Kirk was essentially forced off the bridge of the Enterprise by Starfleet after the five year mission...he was a hero and a success story and Starfleet didn't want him going off and getting killed. Pinning Admiral's stars on him and giving him essentially command of the fleet was his "reward" for being a hero.

Remember there are a number of years between ST:TMP and STII:TWOK. According to fanon, Kirk was sent off on another 5 year mission after TMP and at the end of that he agreed to become Commandant of Cadets at Starfleet Academy, where we find him in STII. Spock, knowing where Kirk truly belonged, agreed to take command of the Enterprise when it was reassigned as an Academy Training Vessel and felt he was basically keeping Kirk's command chair warm for him, knowing full well that one day Kirk would come back home.

McCoy in TMP is concerned because Kirk's blind focus on getting command of the Enterprise back was clouding his better judgement, and causing Kirk to view allies as potential enemies and making him not think things through properly. Recall from TOS, Kirk does have obsessive tendancies. By TWOK, Kirk has seemed to become resigned to the fact that his days of being allowed to command a ship are probably slipping away, and McCoy knows that Jim Kirk without the Starship Enterprise under his feet was a shell of a man.

:logical:

But if the Enterprise was being used to train cadets why would Spock assume he was keeping Kirk's Captains chair warm for him? Wouldn't you agree that when a Starship is regulated to training it's days of service are about over and mothballs is the next progression for the Enterprise. With that said Spock would have to assume there would be no ship for Kirk to return to unless he wanted to be a museum curator.

That might bne the most logical way to look at it.But remember......even Spock said he has the ability to see past just pure logic.

He has fate in ?destiny....and he felt it was Kirks destiny to command a starship again.

And BTW, Enterprise wasnt relegated to training service.

It was assigned to the academy to train a new crew for her.So once all those cadets were fdully trained in her operations she was going to be sent out with her new crew on a new ?mission.

Stovokor-

I must respectfully disagree. The Enterprise couldn't be training a new crew for her with new missions because in Star Trek III TSFS Fleet Admiral Morrow told Kirk there would be no refit and the Enterprise's active duty days were over. Hence Mr. Scott being reassigned to head of engineering of the Excelsior.

The Enterprise had just been ripped to shreds in the encounter with Khan. I'm quite certain that a cost analysis on "refit and repair" vs. "scrap" was done, and any plans to decomission the ship were quickly accelarated due to the tremendous beating she took in that encounter.

It's clear that Starfleet had already intended to replace the Enterprise with another Constitution-refit anyway, as the 1701-A was issued to Kirk and crew a meer 3 months after the Khan incident.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 7:50 pm

Quote (Captain_Venkman @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:44 pm)
Well we see in TSFS which takes place within a week after the events of TWOK that the Enterprise is to be decommissioned. So I don't think the idea of Spock minding the Enterprise works that well.

Here's the flaw in your logic.

The Enterprise was going to be decommissioned due damage she substained in the battle with Khan.

Starfleet had no plans to put her out active service before that.

But due to the damage they felt it wasnt worth trying to fix an old ship.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 7:55 pm

Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:49 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:36 pm)
Quote (exeter276 @ Jan. 26 2010, 3:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:38 pm)
Kirk was essentially forced off the bridge of the Enterprise by Starfleet after the five year mission...he was a hero and a success story and Starfleet didn't want him going off and getting killed. Pinning Admiral's stars on him and giving him essentially command of the fleet was his "reward" for being a hero.

Remember there are a number of years between ST:TMP and STII:TWOK. According to fanon, Kirk was sent off on another 5 year mission after TMP and at the end of that he agreed to become Commandant of Cadets at Starfleet Academy, where we find him in STII. Spock, knowing where Kirk truly belonged, agreed to take command of the Enterprise when it was reassigned as an Academy Training Vessel and felt he was basically keeping Kirk's command chair warm for him, knowing full well that one day Kirk would come back home.

McCoy in TMP is concerned because Kirk's blind focus on getting command of the Enterprise back was clouding his better judgement, and causing Kirk to view allies as potential enemies and making him not think things through properly. Recall from TOS, Kirk does have obsessive tendancies. By TWOK, Kirk has seemed to become resigned to the fact that his days of being allowed to command a ship are probably slipping away, and McCoy knows that Jim Kirk without the Starship Enterprise under his feet was a shell of a man.

:logical:

But if the Enterprise was being used to train cadets why would Spock assume he was keeping Kirk's Captains chair warm for him? Wouldn't you agree that when a Starship is regulated to training it's days of service are about over and mothballs is the next progression for the Enterprise. With that said Spock would have to assume there would be no ship for Kirk to return to unless he wanted to be a museum curator.

That might bne the most logical way to look at it.But remember......even Spock said he has the ability to see past just pure logic.

He has fate in ?destiny....and he felt it was Kirks destiny to command a starship again.

And BTW, Enterprise wasnt relegated to training service.

It was assigned to the academy to train a new crew for her.So once all those cadets were fdully trained in her operations she was going to be sent out with her new crew on a new ?mission.

Stovokor-

I must respectfully disagree. The Enterprise couldn't be training a new crew for her with new missions because in Star Trek III TSFS Fleet Admiral Morrow told Kirk there would be no refit and the Enterprise's active duty days were over. Hence Mr. Scott being reassigned to head of engineering of the Excelsior.

Then I suggest you pay closer attention to the dialog of TWOK.

Bone said [paraphrased] "wouldnt it be easier to put an experanmced crew back on the enterprise"......as appose to training a new crew for her.

Kirk said "galvanizing across the universe is a game for the young"

As for ¿Fleet Admiral Morrow's statement.......The Enterprise was going to be decommissioned due damage she sustained in the battle with Khan.

Starfleet had no plans to put her out active service before that.

But due to the damage they felt it wasnt worth trying to fix an old ship.

Mirrorgirl

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 15692

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 8:23 pm

Wow, this has been a great thread to read through, I have enjoyed everyone's posts. And Starbase63 and Vger23, you guys have said exactly what I would have - thanks you saved me a lot of typing :laugh:

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 8:43 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Jan. 26 2010, 4:12 pm)
Quote (Captain_Venkman @ Jan. 26 2010, 2:09 pm)
I always get the impression that TWOK was written with the view that TMP had never happened. I don't know why I feel that, but the movie has a couple of things that make me feel like TMP is being ignored.

Most notable to me is the change in McCoy. In TMP he's very critical of Kirk wanting his command back and calls it his obsession. In TWOK he's the one pointing out to Kirk that he needs to get his command back or risk being a has-been.

Absolutely not. A great deal of time has passed between TMP and TWOK.

Kirk hasn't "logged a single star hour in 2 1/2 years" according to Decker in TMP.

Kirk says in TWOK "There's a man out there I haven't seen in 15 years who is trying to kill me."

That means that approximately 8-10 years has passed between the two films. There's no reason to assume that any of the issues that existed in the first film would still be on the table for discussion a decade later.

McCoy's complaints were not centered around Kirk wanting to get the ship back. His complaints were around the MANNER in which he went about that task:

"It's an obsession that can blind you to far more immediate and critical responsibilities!"

McCoy, under NORMAL circumstances probably would have fully supported Kirk's career choice to get back in the captain's chair. You have to remember that McCoy in TMP was drafted back into the service and had nearly just been killed by Kirk's practical incompetence with the redesign of the phaser systems.

Vger is right about the gap between TMP and TWOK.  The assumption is, and it's a logical one, that Kirk commanded the Enterprise for several years after TMP.  After intentionally getting his grade back to captain and the Enterprise, does anyone really think he'd let them promote him back to Admiral afterwards.  This is also evident in the novelization of TMP.  Kirk had no intention then of going back to the admiralty.

However, I think after the second mission that SF must have forced Kirk out of the chair.  In GEN, we find out that he left SF and then returned.  The Okudas surmised that this was after his second mission following TMP and before TWOK.  Maybe Kirk decided to try retirement.  When that didn't work for him, he went back to SF, allowing them to reactivate his commision as an Admiral (if he wasn't promoted following the second mission), which is where we find him in TWOK.

Now, as for why there is such a big time gap between TMP and TWOK, that goes back to Harve Bennett.  After watching TMP, he noted that they were trying to portray all the characters as no more than 4 years older than the last time they'd been seen.  Bennett thought they should be playing their characters at their real ages.  Basically, TWOK "catches up" with the characters, synchronizing their ages.  

Shatner was initially concerned about this.  He didn't like the idea of playing an older Kirk, I think because he recognized that a lot of Kirk's appeal was in his youthful vitality.  Bennett won him over, though, by convincing Shatner that he could play Kirk "aging gracefully," like Spencer Tracy as an actor.  Shatner was a great admirer of Tracy and that won him over.  I remember Shatner saying in a pre TSFS interview that he really liked adding the aging aspect to Kirk.  I think he realized that it made the character more human.  And, even if he wasn't a young man anymore, the ST films showed that Kirk, like John Wayne, could still kick a$$.  

The other possible reason for the time interval between TMP and TWOK is that they wanted some time to clear the air for their new take on ST.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jan. 26 2010, 8:45 pm

Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 26 2010, 8:28 pm)
I agree that the jump from TMP to TWOK isn't smooth. I like the fanon explanations though, they almost make me believe. :)
I really don't think Kirk would make the same mistake twice and return to the admiralty and I think Spock wouldn't be teaching but doing scientific research at the VSA or captaining.

I don't think Kirk had much of a choice the second time.  I have a feeling he was kicked out of the chair by SF command because he was too valuable to them as far as PR.  They gave him a choice, retire or be promoted.  From GEN, we know that he retired, found out that didn't work for him, and then came back as an Admiral.  That's the evidence for that interpretation of events.

I don't have any problem with Spock teaching.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum