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The Snow Outpost in Star Trek XI

stealthgear

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POSTS: 140

Report this Jan. 08 2010, 2:02 pm

I just watched for the 3rd time....

Questions and thoughts:
The snow planet where Scottie had an outpost was kind of interesting. Was he working under the Federation already? What was his mission? Did they ever drop any sandwiches for him (or did he hunt like spock probably did)?

Then there was spock in the cave. If the outpost was within walking distance, how come spock never found that place and warned everybody that Nero was coming? Did Spock know that Nero would destroy his planet? Did he know what time period he was in?

Also the animals were kind of interesting. I found the larger one not very adapted to living on a cold surface. The coloration of the alien (red and black) was not very natural, unless it was living underground where it was the same color scheme. This whole sequence was a lot like Star Wars The Phantom menace where Obi-wan takes the submarine past the planets core, with multiple animals eating eachother as they walk past.

--
-This is unrelated, but in the special features I found it kind of odd they spent so much time designing & detailing some of the rubber-masked aliens who hardly said much or contributed to the plot (besides Scottie's little friend of course)
--
Another thing I wondered...why didn't nero destroy Spock's ship. It was left on his mining vessel. Was this Nero's biggest mistake that led to his demise?

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 08 2010, 2:23 pm

Quote (stealthgear @ Jan. 08 2010, 2:02 pm)
I just watched for the 3rd time....

Questions and thoughts:
The snow planet where Scottie had an outpost was kind of interesting. Was he working under the Federation already? What was his mission? Did they ever drop any sandwiches for him (or did he hunt like spock probably did)?

Then there was spock in the cave. If the outpost was within walking distance, how come spock never found that place and warned everybody that Nero was coming? Did Spock know that Nero would destroy his planet? Did he know what time period he was in?

Also the animals were kind of interesting. I found the larger one not very adapted to living on a cold surface. The coloration of the alien (red and black) was not very natural, unless it was living underground where it was the same color scheme. This whole sequence was a lot like Star Wars The Phantom menace where Obi-wan takes the submarine past the planets core, with multiple animals eating eachother as they walk past.

--
-This is unrelated, but in the special features I found it kind of odd they spent so much time designing & detailing some of the rubber-masked aliens who hardly said much or contributed to the plot (besides Scottie's little friend of course)
--
Another thing I wondered...why didn't nero destroy Spock's ship. It was left on his mining vessel. Was this Nero's biggest mistake that led to his demise?

I'll try to answer your questions:

1. At the time Kirk meets Scotty, he is indeed a Starfleet officer. Note the dialogue aboard the Enterprise when Spock asks Scott if he "is a member of Starfleet" to which Scott replies "yes."

2. Scott says he's been eating rations that the outpost was apparently stocked with. I don't think he was "hunting." Spock would not have been "hunting" either, as Vulcans are vegetarians.

3. Spock was only on the planet a short while before Nero executed his plan. I gathered that he was literally dropped off, and Nero took the a brief trip across the sector / system to Vulcan to accomplish the events pictured in the film. It is unclear if Spock KNEW that Nero was going to destroy Vulcan. It is also unclear if he knew what time period he was in. He seemed shocked to see Kirk, and also shocked to learn that Kirk was not the captain of the Enterprise.

4. Nero did not destroy Spock's ship because it housed the red matter containment device, which was integral to his plans to destroy the Federation plantets.

fooledagain

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POSTS: 878

Report this Jan. 08 2010, 2:28 pm

And yet another cliff hanger scene on the snow planet.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 08 2010, 2:44 pm

Quote (fooledagain @ Jan. 08 2010, 2:28 pm)
And yet another cliff hanger scene on the snow planet.

Oh, NO!!!!! Not another cliffhanger scene!!!

Oh, the humanity!!!

:eyesroll:

GRKiller

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POSTS: 125

Report this Jan. 09 2010, 10:25 am

Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 09 2010, 9:58 am)
Isn't it lucky that everyone coincidentally meets at the same place on the planet/moon/asteroid or whatever Delta Vega is?
Lucky that Nero puts Spock in walking distance of the Federation Station.
I can sort of understand why Kirk might have been sent there (nearest Federation outpost) but why would Nero send Spock Prime there - to the exact location that nuKirk was going to be sent to?
Did Nero want Prime Spock to survive?

As far as Nero sending Spock there, I assume either 1) Nero knew of the outpost and wanted Spock to survived in order to see the destruction of Vulcan, or 2) Spock landed there coincidentally.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 09 2010, 10:54 am

Quote (GRKiller @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:25 am)
Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 09 2010, 9:58 am)
Isn't it lucky that everyone coincidentally meets at the same place on the planet/moon/asteroid or whatever Delta Vega is?
Lucky that Nero puts Spock in walking distance of the Federation Station.
I can sort of understand why Kirk might have been sent there (nearest Federation outpost) but why would Nero send Spock Prime there - to the exact location that nuKirk was going to be sent to?
Did Nero want Prime Spock to survive?

As far as Nero sending Spock there, I assume either 1) Nero knew of the outpost and wanted Spock to survived in order to see the destruction of Vulcan, or 2) Spock landed there coincidentally.

No more conincidental than the "Enterprise being the only ship in the sector" gag, or Kirk just happening to be aboard the Enterprise when Khan springs his trap (obviously he spends most of his time at the Academy) or the Enterprise arriving at Genesis JUST as the Klingons are capturing the Grissom landing party, etc. etc. etc.

GRKiller

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POSTS: 125

Report this Jan. 09 2010, 12:00 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:54 am)
Quote (GRKiller @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:25 am)
Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 09 2010, 9:58 am)
Isn't it lucky that everyone coincidentally meets at the same place on the planet/moon/asteroid or whatever Delta Vega is?
Lucky that Nero puts Spock in walking distance of the Federation Station.
I can sort of understand why Kirk might have been sent there (nearest Federation outpost) but why would Nero send Spock Prime there - to the exact location that nuKirk was going to be sent to?
Did Nero want Prime Spock to survive?

As far as Nero sending Spock there, I assume either 1) Nero knew of the outpost and wanted Spock to survived in order to see the destruction of Vulcan, or 2) Spock landed there coincidentally.

No more conincidental than the "Enterprise being the only ship in the sector" gag, or Kirk just happening to be aboard the Enterprise when Khan springs his trap (obviously he spends most of his time at the Academy) or the Enterprise arriving at Genesis JUST as the Klingons are capturing the Grissom landing party, etc. etc. etc.

Exactly. Sometimes far fetched coincidinces must happen in order to advance the story.

Blockman

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POSTS: 520

Report this Jan. 11 2010, 6:53 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:54 am)
Quote (GRKiller @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:25 am)
Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 09 2010, 9:58 am)
Isn't it lucky that everyone coincidentally meets at the same place on the planet/moon/asteroid or whatever Delta Vega is?
Lucky that Nero puts Spock in walking distance of the Federation Station.
I can sort of understand why Kirk might have been sent there (nearest Federation outpost) but why would Nero send Spock Prime there - to the exact location that nuKirk was going to be sent to?
Did Nero want Prime Spock to survive?

As far as Nero sending Spock there, I assume either 1) Nero knew of the outpost and wanted Spock to survived in order to see the destruction of Vulcan, or 2) Spock landed there coincidentally.

No more conincidental than the "Enterprise being the only ship in the sector" gag, or Kirk just happening to be aboard the Enterprise when Khan springs his trap (obviously he spends most of his time at the Academy) or the Enterprise arriving at Genesis JUST as the Klingons are capturing the Grissom landing party, etc. etc. etc.

This scene, along with Spock being allowed to kick Kirk off the entire ship, and Kirks jump in rank, takes me almost right out of the movie. :(

I understand giving examples from prior movies, but just because something has gone poorly in the past doesn't give it the right/excuse for it to happen again.

I find the movie thoroughly enjoyable, but I don't make excuses for these mistakes and I'm able to admit them especially with each movie.

(I've always thought it's been too tough to try and fit 7 or more important characters into a 2 hr film, much less their origin, as opposed to a full season)

Narada

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POSTS: 4008

Report this Jan. 11 2010, 7:15 pm

Good OP and everyone does a good job to answer these questions. As answered by GRKiller and also TheChronicOne the Starfleet outpost could be known by Nero and also the Federation. Prime Spock and young Kirk were both dropped in this proximity because it may be the closest Federation outpost to Vulcan.

We know prime Spock was not on Delta Vega for long because he only came through the portal just before these scenes and he is shown to witness the Vulcan destruction. So it is only a very short time. He can also know of this outpost or maybe he even told Nero about it. This is not an impossible coincidence.

Blockman

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POSTS: 520

Report this Jan. 13 2010, 9:41 pm

I just think the underlying issue with all the scenes that have problems is trying to fit the entire origin story of all 7 characters into 1 film. That seems to be what hurts certain parts the most. It takes the viewer right out of the film when you can obviously see the writers trying to get certain characters together or have kirk leap in rank just to get everyone to their culmination, by means of multiple scenes that are each a bit of a strech.

Perhaps it would have worked smoother if over the course of a few movies they'd had the time to show the journey each character had to take for them to all get together.

WkdYngMan

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POSTS: 3951

Report this Jan. 13 2010, 9:49 pm

Quote (Blockman @ Jan. 13 2010, 9:41 pm)
Perhaps it would have worked smoother if over the course of a few movies they'd had the time to show the journey each character had to take for them to all get together.

Which may not have been a great idea in case the first film bombed.  They would have risked being removed from future projects and Paramount would have wanted to start over again.. therefore you have an open ended movie that leaves too many loose ends.  The way they did it, they got every together, everyone's happy in the end, and the Enterprise warps off to the sunset.  But they can still continue.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 13 2010, 9:59 pm

Quote (Blockman @ Jan. 11 2010, 6:53 pm)
Quote (Vger23 @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:54 am)
Quote (GRKiller @ Jan. 09 2010, 10:25 am)
Quote (ServalanFan @ Jan. 09 2010, 9:58 am)
Isn't it lucky that everyone coincidentally meets at the same place on the planet/moon/asteroid or whatever Delta Vega is?
Lucky that Nero puts Spock in walking distance of the Federation Station.
I can sort of understand why Kirk might have been sent there (nearest Federation outpost) but why would Nero send Spock Prime there - to the exact location that nuKirk was going to be sent to?
Did Nero want Prime Spock to survive?

As far as Nero sending Spock there, I assume either 1) Nero knew of the outpost and wanted Spock to survived in order to see the destruction of Vulcan, or 2) Spock landed there coincidentally.

No more conincidental than the "Enterprise being the only ship in the sector" gag, or Kirk just happening to be aboard the Enterprise when Khan springs his trap (obviously he spends most of his time at the Academy) or the Enterprise arriving at Genesis JUST as the Klingons are capturing the Grissom landing party, etc. etc. etc.

This scene, along with Spock being allowed to kick Kirk off the entire ship, and Kirks jump in rank, takes me almost right out of the movie. :(

I understand giving examples from prior movies, but just because something has gone poorly in the past doesn't give it the right/excuse for it to happen again.

I find the movie thoroughly enjoyable, but I don't make excuses for these mistakes and I'm able to admit them especially with each movie.

(I've always thought it's been too tough to try and fit 7 or more important characters into a 2 hr film, much less their origin, as opposed to a full season)

I'm not making excuses for the movie at all. I fully and freely admit that it is full of mistakes, contrivances, and even outright foolishness.

What I AM claiming is:

1. The fact that the film has flaws doesn't make in any less enjoyable for me to watch whatsoever.

2. The "best" Star Trek films (II, IV, VI) are also so filled with inconsistencies, plotholes, contrivances, and foolishness that I would be a full-fledged hypocrite to criticize this new movie and not hold those movies equally accountable. But, since I also genuinely enjoy those movies, I don't give a $hit about those problems either.

Most movies and complex televison shows are filled with inconsitencies and contrivances. That's why it's entertainment and not a documentary.

I for one am glad Star Trek values entertainment over realism. I have realism in my every day life. If I wanted realism, I wouldn't be watching Star Trek to begin with, that's for sure.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Jan. 13 2010, 10:03 pm

Quote (WkdYngMan @ Jan. 13 2010, 9:49 pm)
Quote (Blockman @ Jan. 13 2010, 9:41 pm)
Perhaps it would have worked smoother if over the course of a few movies they'd had the time to show the journey each character had to take for them to all get together.

Which may not have been a great idea in case the first film bombed. ¿They would have risked being removed from future projects and Paramount would have wanted to start over again.. therefore you have an open ended movie that leaves too many loose ends. ¿The way they did it, they got every together, everyone's happy in the end, and the Enterprise warps off to the sunset. ¿But they can still continue.

Right.

It amazes me that people forget that this movie was made to be a highly accessable, mass-appealing blockbuster. It wasn't made JUST for Trek fans. So, we can sit here and pine for what we think would have been better or what we think should have been done...but history has proven that what Trek fans want is not even consistent within their own fandom, let alone consistent with what anyone in the general audience would care about.

So, the only route was the route taken. If you try to please all the fans, you end up pleasing none of them. If you try to just make an entertaining movie, you'll get lots of general people to see the movie and enjoy it, and you're likely to get a good number of fans along in the process.

Case-and-point: Star Trek 2009

TrekFan1701E

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POSTS: 14979

Report this Jan. 14 2010, 4:52 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Jan. 13 2010, 10:03 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Jan. 13 2010, 9:49 pm)
Quote (Blockman @ Jan. 13 2010, 9:41 pm)
Perhaps it would have worked smoother if over the course of a few movies they'd had the time to show the journey each character had to take for them to all get together.

Which may not have been a great idea in case the first film bombed. ?They would have risked being removed from future projects and Paramount would have wanted to start over again.. therefore you have an open ended movie that leaves too many loose ends. ?The way they did it, they got every together, everyone's happy in the end, and the Enterprise warps off to the sunset. ?But they can still continue.

Right.

It amazes me that people forget that this movie was made to be a highly accessable, mass-appealing blockbuster. It wasn't made JUST for Trek fans. So, we can sit here and pine for what we think would have been better or what we think should have been done...but history has proven that what Trek fans want is not even consistent within their own fandom, let alone consistent with what anyone in the general audience would care about.

So, the only route was the route taken. If you try to please all the fans, you end up pleasing none of them. If you try to just make an entertaining movie, you'll get lots of general people to see the movie and enjoy it, and you're likely to get a good number of fans along in the process.

Case-and-point: Star Trek 2009

Hear, Hear!

Trekwolf164

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POSTS: 32043

Report this Jan. 14 2010, 4:58 pm

Spock Prime could have become aware of the station during his mind meld with Nu Kirk.

:logical:

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