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Should kirk have saved Nero?

stealthgear

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 12:18 am

Should Kirk have saved Nero at the end of the of Star Trek (2009) movie? They had the chance to beam him over and he didnt want it.

The main philosophical question would be: "Should you save someone who hasn't asked for it? This question would apply to different situations not involving criminals. Say a native who is starving but doesnt want help. What should you do?

For some reason I believe TV show Picard would have saved him anyway and brought him to justice. There are times in Star Trek when dealing with the borg, they have shown mercy. Also, somehow everyone was at Kirk's cheated Kobiyashi Maru hearing, but a trial for Nero never happens. They could have locked him up. It didnt seem like the humane thing to do. I think Kirk or Picard would have beamed Nero over against his will. What do you think? I know he's not worth saving, but maybe there is a principle thats important.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 10:44 am

Problem is, Kirk would have had to have lowered his shields to forcibly beam Nero and his crew out, and although the Narada appeared to be crippled, they couldn't be sure that Nero didn't have something else he could assault them with or bring back online - after all, the Narada was built with future technology whose capabilities they were not fully aware of, and Nero had made it clear that he would absolutely not surrender under any circumstances.

In this sense, Kirk was prudent to not endanger his crew by attempting to beam Nero and his cohorts out after they failed to surrender, and to instead further cripple the Narada to ensure it could not make a last ditch attack.

Vger23

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 10:52 am

I agree with Vorta. The risk to Kirk's ship and crew were too great. The Enterprise was nearly swallowed by the singularity even WITHOUT attempting a rescue.

Nero was one of the most heinous criminals the galaxy had ever seen. Even a Klingon Prison was incapable of holding him effectively. He had committed genocide on a mass-scale, and openly voiced his intention to continue.

And no, Kirk WOULDN'T have tried to beam Nero over against his will. Kirk has demonstrated this in the past.

1. "Balance of Terror"- he allows the Romulan Commander to commit suicide
2. "The Search For Spock"- he kicks Kruge off the cliff
3. "The Undiscovered Country"- He continues to fire on Chang even after the Bird of Prey is clearly crippled and helpless

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 11:16 am

Quote (Vger23 @ Dec. 27 2009, 4:52 pm)
1. "Balance of Terror"- he allows the Romulan Commander to commit suicide

Yes. I was just about to mention this.

I think that Kirk has a true understanding of the inherent sense of honour that many of these warriors possess, and realises that sometimes, there ARE fates worse than death.

Although I do wish that in STXI it hadn't been Spock who refused to help...that didn't ring true to his character IMO.

Vger23

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 2:19 pm

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Dec. 28 2009, 11:16 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ Dec. 27 2009, 4:52 pm)
1. "Balance of Terror"- he allows the Romulan Commander to commit suicide

Yes. I was just about to mention this.

I think that Kirk has a true understanding of the inherent sense of honour that many of these warriors possess, and realises that sometimes, there ARE fates worse than death.

Although I do wish that in STXI it hadn't been Spock who refused to help...that didn't ring true to his character IMO.

I'm not sure if I would act "true to character" if I had just watched my entire world be destroyed and my mother murdered.

I think a lot of times we forget the unimaginable and horrific effect this must have had on him. I'd say he actually handles it quite well.

I'll give him a pass on this one.

;)

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 5:13 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Dec. 27 2009, 8:19 pm)
I'm not sure if I would act "true to character" if I had just watched my entire world be destroyed and my mother murdered.

I think a lot of times we forget the unimaginable and horrific effect this must have had on him. I'd say he actually handles it quite well.

I'll give him a pass on this one.

;)

*sigh* Will you stop being so goddarn logical Vger! You're in danger of winning me over to STXI! :laugh:

In all seriousness though, Spock nearly lost his father in Journey to Babel, yet he still managed to control his emotions and act logical, so I'm still not 100 percent convinced...but I can see where you're coming from.

Narada

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 5:28 pm

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Dec. 28 2009, 5:13 pm)
Quote (Vger23 @ Dec. 27 2009, 8:19 pm)
I'm not sure if I would act "true to character" if I had just watched my entire world be destroyed and my mother murdered.

I think a lot of times we forget the unimaginable and horrific effect this must have had on him. I'd say he actually handles it quite well.

I'll give him a pass on this one.

;)

*sigh* Will you stop being so goddarn logical Vger! You're in danger of winning me over to STXI! :laugh:

In all seriousness though, Spock nearly lost his father in Journey to Babel, yet he still managed to control his emotions and act logical, so I'm still not 100 percent convinced...but I can see where you're coming from.

On the subject for Spock and Kirk interacting with Nero at the end I believe it was sufficient. The Narada was going down but there was enough time to save the crew. Kirk offered to save them which is probably Starfleet regulation but also an act of compassion for peace.

To me this was a moment where we see the development of the 2 main characters. Kirk who was more brash and emotional in the film but plays it by the book with logic at the end. He is also showing compassion in hopes there will be peace with Romulus. Spock was more logical in the film but in the end he gives a surprisingly emotional response. This shows the 2 main characters transformed by this point and their relationship is well established because they are showing compromise and cooperation. Kirk also says "I thought you would like that Spock."

There is also humor in this scene when the 2 main characters interact with the villain and what proceeds with the action.

I am not surprised when Spock shows emotion. After all Vulcans have very strong emotions even though they follow the path of logic. Spock is also half human so he is learning to relate in this way. He is even shown to have emotion when he denies the Kolihnar in the Motion Picture.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 6:40 pm

Quote (VAD_BAXTER @ Dec. 28 2009, 10:33 pm)
As I have stated before MrsS we are seeing a "The Cage" era type Spock.

I agree VAD_BAXTER; as MrsStarbuck so rightly says, it's out of character for Spock - but only the older, maturer Spock of TOS. The youth we get in Star Trek XI does not yet have the emotional maturity to process the events of that magnitude that he has suffered during the film and subsequently is not able to relate to Nero in the way that the TOS Spock would have done.

Narada

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 6:49 pm

I also have an additional take on the subject of the Spock character evolution. During the time on the Original Series he is a Vulcan advancing in his career. He is often wishing to point out the differences with Vulcans and Humans almost in an effort to side with his Vulcan half. In view of his whole character growth it seems to be he is overcompensating for his Vulcan half during this time of his career. By the time we see him through the movies and the Next Generation he comes full circle to embrace all parts of who he really is.

JM1ICEMAN

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 11:17 pm

And see, that's the difference between villains and hero's.
Villains always make the mistake of imprisoning the hero who'll just escape, foil their evil plans and then kill them.
Hero's just out right kill them or let them meet their own demise.

(learn that from watching Austin Power's)

Vger23

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Report this Dec. 29 2009, 10:00 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Dec. 28 2009, 5:13 pm)
Quote (Vger23 @ Dec. 27 2009, 8:19 pm)
I'm not sure if I would act "true to character" if I had just watched my entire world be destroyed and my mother murdered.

I think a lot of times we forget the unimaginable and horrific effect this must have had on him. I'd say he actually handles it quite well.

I'll give him a pass on this one.

;)

*sigh* Will you stop being so goddarn logical Vger! You're in danger of winning me over to STXI! :laugh:

:laugh:

stealthgear

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Report this Dec. 30 2009, 12:53 am

Since when has justice become killing someone? I swear star trek plots are so patterned and ritualized that they are now religious. Its like anything that could be different is being shot down from those above. Nero's goal was not to kill everyone in the universe but to force empathy on them. He spared (old) Spock! The Enterprise has enough security to hold him. Since when are shields a concern in the face of danger for Kirk?

WkdYngMan

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Report this Dec. 30 2009, 2:31 am

Quote (stealthgear @ Dec. 30 2009, 12:53 am)
Nero's goal was not to kill everyone in the universe but to force empathy on them. He spared (old) Spock!

Yeah, committing Genocide against 6 Billion people and about to commit genocide to potentially tens of billions more is not a huge deal at all. But he saved Old Spock, so obviously he's not that bad!

Narada

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Report this Dec. 30 2009, 3:55 am

Kirk asked if he wanted help. Nero answered he would rather see Romulus die 1000 times than to accept help. So he did not want it.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Dec. 30 2009, 9:06 am

Quote (stealthgear @ Dec. 30 2009, 5:53 am)
Since when are shields a concern in the face of danger for Kirk?

Since there was the possibility that the Narada, a ship of unknown capabilities built from little understood future technology and whose weapons had decimated whole fleets, could bring online something to harm the Enterprise in a last gasp assault.

Nero had just said that he would rather die than surrender, and so it would have been irresponsible for Kirk to have endangered the lives of his entire crew by lowering the Enterprise's shields and risking a final attack from a technologically advanced ship under the command of a suicidal, genocidal madman.

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