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The Undiscovered Country

Narada

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 6:43 pm

Quote (TheChronicOne @ Dec. 28 2009, 6:37 pm)
Fo sho.

Here's another... specifically from TUC. If the Klingons back then could do it, why wasn't "firing while cloaked" much more used by various groups?? ?(we know why, that in real life, the writers wouldn't keep using that same ploy all the time)

Even with the prototype was destroyed, surely in the century to pass afterwards, the Klingons or someone would've perfected it again.


Here's a hypothetical: If the holodeck safeties can be turned off and bombs can really do damage (Voyager, The Killing Game) what would happen if you had a holographic warp core breach?


OR: Why not install a bunch of holo-emitters on the outside of the hull and have all the holographic torpedoes you want??

You bring up interesting questions. I am sure many fans here would like to answer your hypothetical suggestions and I will also give some guesses. I have a good idea how to answer the holographic questions but with cloaking I must review what is shown for that subject.

Narada

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 6:59 pm

I decided to look up the reference on holodeck safety protocols. I think it was a good feature for the writers because it makes common sense to have safety protocols in a holodeck. Then by using a technological plot device they can reintroduce suspense and excitement in this setting when the protocols are deactivated.

Quote
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Holodeck_safety_protocol
The holographic safety protocols were a safety subsystem of the holodeck computer and designed to protect the participants of a holoprogram.

Safety protocols were present to prevent serious injury of the people inside a simulation. This meant that weapons fired within the simulation would not be able to kill or that the computer could prevent dangerous situations when testing a new ship design.

Safety protocols could be overruled if the person in question had the correct access codes. It was also possible for a holoprogram to disable the safety protocols if it was programmed to do so. (VOY: "Worst Case Scenario") A malfunction in the ship's main computer could render the safety protocols inoperative. (TNG: "A Fistful of Datas")

In 2364, when a Jaradan probe inadvertently caused a malfunction in the safety protocols Whalen was shot and seriously wounded by Cyrus Redblock's henchman Felix Leech who also struck Jean-Luc Picard with his Pistol busting his lip for sticking him earlier. (TNG: "The Big Goodbye")

In 2372, Julian Bashir and Elim Garak ran the holoprogram Julian Bashir, Secret Agent together. While fighting Falcon and his men, Bashir noticed that Garak was bleeding. Garak noted that the holosuite's safety protocols must have been turned off. (DS9: "Our Man Bashir")

While trying to evade the Borg on the USS Enterprise-E, Captain Jean-Luc Picard and Lily Sloane retreated into one of the ship's holodecks, where Picard ran a holoprogram of the Dixon Hill series. He was able to kill both of the Borg who were following him with a machine gun after turning off the holodeck safety protocols. (Star Trek: First Contact)

In 2373, General Martok told Julian Bashir he had deactivated the safety protocols of a holosuite on Deep Space 9, leading to an injury, although he had in fact been injured by Worf. (DS9: "Soldiers of the Empire")

In 2375, Seven of Nine deactivated the safety protocols on The Adventures of Captain Proton holoprogram so she could fire a holographic ray gun at a Night Alien and stun him. (VOY: "Night")

In 2375, after learning of the Maquis' destruction in the Alpha Quadrant, B'Elanna Torres began running dangerous holodeck programs on the USS Voyager with the safety protocols turned off. (VOY: "Extreme Risk")

On Voyager's holodeck, the safety protocols malfunctioned and a photonic lifeform was killed by one of Doctor Chaotica's henchmen. (VOY: "Bride of Chaotica!")


With the holographic weapons question I think the answer to that originates from the explanation of a replicator being used in the holodeck. And to seem more realistic the snow is like real snow or the water you drink is also real. Or sometimes it is only explained they are force fields and holograms so take your pick. We can probably say some things are replicated and some are not. I wonder how this pans out for Voyager replicator rations?

So if someone believes a real gun with real bullets is replicated in a holodeck they can say this. Or they can say the holographic gun propels force fields which are the same force as real bullets. Either explanation will work. But to wonder if a torpedo can be replicated then maybe it can but I do not think holographic weapons would be available without sophisticated exterior force fields and projection systems. It is almost easier just to fire a real one.

I like how they creatively experiment with the holodeck in new ways for each series. I must still research the subject of cloaks to give an educated guess.

captbates

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 7:00 pm

TheChronicOne Posted on Dec. 27 2009, 11:37 pm
Quote
Here's a hypothetical: If the holodeck safeties can be turned off and bombs can really do damage (Voyager, The Killing Game) what would happen if you had a holographic warp core breach?


The holodeck is on a different power system to the rest of the ship, it wouldn't be able to produce anywhere near enough power to create a "real" core breach.

Quote
OR: Why not install a bunch of holo-emitters on the outside of the hull and have all the holographic torpedoes you want??


I think the power required to do this would be too great, remember the trouble Voyager had projecting holograms into space? "Man overboard" lol.
Think about the distance between two battling ships, it could be thousands of kilometers, even hundreds of thousands, that's gonna need a big emitter.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 7:12 pm

Quote (TheChronicOne @ Dec. 28 2009, 11:37 pm)
Here's another... specifically from TUC. If the Klingons back then could do it, why wasn't "firing while cloaked" much more used by various groups?? ¿(we know why, that in real life, the writers wouldn't keep using that same ploy all the time)


I'm assuming that the prototype was the unique joint product of the Romulan/Federation/Klingon cabal and known only to them, and with that group's disintegration and the destruction of the prototype, the technology was lost as it's creators were scattered or killed.


Quote (TheChronicOne @ Dec. 28 2009, 11:37 pm)
Even with the prototype was destroyed, surely in the century to pass afterwards, the Klingons or someone would've perfected it again.


I was under the impression that the technology was rediscovered/re-invented by the Romulans for use on Shinzon's Scimitar?

captbates

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 7:25 pm

Vorta, that's actually a good point, I hadn't thought of all three working together to create the cloak, but there is a problem with that, no way one or all parties involved wouldn't have held on to the design schematics, with or without the others knowledge.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 7:29 pm

Quote (TheChronicOne @ Dec. 29 2009, 12:19 am)
Indeed, but it took over a hundred years. Or close to it.


Perhaps the cabal were uniquely placed for developing the technology as they had the (illegally obtained) resources of all three civilisations in collaboration (Klingon/Romulan/Federation) to draw upon, whereas the three separate nations themselves may not have been able to make as much progress individually without help from both of the others?


Quote (captbates @ Dec. 29 2009, 12:25 am)
Vorta, that's actually a good point, I hadn't thought of all three working together to create the cloak, but there is a problem with that, no way one or all parties involved wouldn't have held on to the design schematics, with or without the others knowledge.


That's a very good point; the only way I could think of it is if the cabal deliberately kept the plans in a secret location in order to not let the other individual members get their hands on it so that things could be "equal", and the location was lost with the group's capture and dissolution.

I suppose there's also the possibility that the "perfect cloak" could also be ridiculously intricate and expensive to produce and not suitable for mass production.

qeylis68

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 9:38 pm

Quote (TheChronicOne @ Dec. 28 2009, 6:37 pm)
OR: Why not install a bunch of holo-emitters on the outside of the hull and have all the holographic torpedoes you want??

they did that once but they didn't have the power to sustain it and i think they would have a range limit so if you fired a torpedo then it would fizzle into nothingness like those characters in the holonovel in TNG in the second season

Chuband

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Report this Dec. 30 2009, 1:37 pm

Can someone help me with a line at the end...(been too long since I've seen it I guess)...when they are told to return to decommission...Spock says something to the effect of "Go to H...")...what exactly was it he said?

Chuband

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Report this Dec. 30 2009, 1:47 pm

Perfect. Thank you!

Atreidae

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Report this Jan. 27 2010, 4:06 pm

Hi guys, I'm a somewhat noobish Star Trek fan, I love the movies that star the original cast. ¿Not such a Jean-Luc fan. ¿I'm not too familiar with the Star Trek universe in the Jean-Luc time period. ¿I really like the story of The Undiscovered Country and was wondering if someone could give me a run down (or some good links to follow) on what happened to the Klingon Empire in the period following The Undiscovered Country. ¿Like I said, I'm not too big a fan of the Jean-Luc movies/shows, but I'm assuming the repercussions of what happened (the explosion) to the Klingons in The Undiscovered Country are somewhat explained or represented in this time period. ¿Thanks guys!

Atreidae

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Report this Jan. 27 2010, 4:23 pm

So through this alliance the Klingon Empire did not wither and die with the Klingons becoming the trash of the universe as predicted in the Undiscovered Country then I'm assuming?  Is it ever mentioned specifically how the Federation saved the Klingons from their demise?  Thanks again for the info and the quick reply.

Atreidae

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Report this Jan. 29 2010, 4:43 pm

Sweet, thanks for the info, going to check out that series.

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