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Regeneration

lostshaker

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Report this Oct. 30 2010, 9:13 pm

Whorf, this is going to be a long response, so I'll break it up into two parts. The first being with regard to First Contact, and the second being in response to S31. And I don't have a grasp on the quotes yet either. That was actually why my last post was skewed. Onwards...


On point 2a you state, "We could assume... the time between the flight of the Phoenix and the meeting with the Vulcans was days and maybe even WEEKS." This assumption would be inaccurate. In fact, the entire time spent in the 22nd Century occurs over 24 hours +/-, and we have a time frame as the movie progresses.  Shortly after the destruction of the Borg Sphere, we get the following dialogue:


Picard: The date? Mister Data, I need to know the exact date.


Data: April 4th, 2063.


Picard: April 4th?


Riker: The day before First Contact.


Then later in the missile silo just after Crusher beams out with Lily, Picard states, "We have less than 14 hours before this ship has to be launched." This places the film sometime after 9 p.m. on April 4th. There are numerous other references to time, but I'll skip to Picard's Log entry at the end of the film: "Captain's Log, April the 5th, 2063. The flight of the Phoenix was a success... again. The alien ship detected the warp signature and is on its way to rendezvous with history." The beginning of the film establishes April 5th to be the day of First Contact, which is reasserted by VGR's "Year of Hell". Therefore, the bulk of the movie (minus the 24th century) takes places within a 24-hour period.  Furthermore, the Vulcans landed in Montana within 12 hours of the Phoenix's flight, given the landing at night.


The escape pods were launched before 11:10 a.m. on April the 5th, as deducted from Riker's time estimates throughout the film.  Therefore, Picard had roughly 6 to 11 hours to retrieve the escape pods before the Vulcans landed. I'm having a temporary brain fart on the episode's name, but VGR had the ability of beaming an entire shuttlecraft into the shuttlebay.  The Enterpise E is superior to Voyager, so it would have this same ability. Retrieving the escape pods via the transporter would be a non-issue and expediant.


Returning to the issue of lunar orbit, you are correct in pointing out the moon's gravitational influence over earth and potential impact on the Enterprise. However, this does not negate the possibility of the Enterprise leaving earth orbit for lunar orbit in preparation of the Vulcan's approach. It has further been established that shutting down all power and hanging over a planet's magnetic poles can confuse an opponent's sensors ("Peak Performance" ,TNG). This could have easily been done and referenced, thereby negating any reference to the moon.  But instead, Worf's comment suggests the moon as the central body for interference, not earth.


I completely agree that the Enterprise was in earth orbit when La Forge centered Cochrane's telescope upon it. I only contend the Enterprise could have left earth orbit sometime after the Phoenix's Warp Flight and the retrieval of the escape pods, but before the Vulcan's approach to earth. I also agree that the lunar orbit is too far out of transporter range, which has been established to be 40,000 km and noted in my last post. However, if full impulse is 1/4th light speed per the Encyclopedia's Comparative Speed Scale, then the Enterprise can travel from the moon to earth in as little as 5.38 sec. The Enterprise could slide in, beam their people out, and be back at the moon in 14 sec, 30 sec when accounting for human lag time.


Lily watching the vortex means nothing other than the Vortex was very bright.  It is true the Enterprise could be seen, but only as a pinpoint of light.  The international Space Station is 51 meters in lengt, and maintains an orbital altitude between 278 km and 460 km. The space station is 40 km shy of being in the exosphere, and though it appears as a pinpoint of light, can be seen from earth. The Enterprise E is almost 700 meters long, over 13x as large as the space station. I don't thinking it would have to be in orbit to see it as a pinpoint of light.  I think Geordi used the telescope to offer Cochrane more detail when, specfically to show it wasn't a satellite or aircraft, when it was definitively in orbit.

Whorf23_mkII

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Report this Oct. 31 2010, 1:25 am

Quote: lostshaker @ Oct. 30 2010, 9:13 pm

Whorf, this is going to be a long response, so I'll break it up into two parts. The first being with regard to First Contact, and the second being in response to S31. And I don't have a grasp on the quotes yet either. That was actually why my last post was skewed. Onwards...

On point 2a you state, "We could assume... the time between the flight of the Phoenix and the meeting with the Vulcans was days and maybe even WEEKS." This assumption would be inaccurate. In fact, the entire time spent in the 22nd Century occurs over 24 hours +/-, and we have a time frame as the movie progresses.  Shortly after the destruction of the Borg Sphere, we get the following dialogue:

Picard: The date? Mister Data, I need to know the exact date.

Data: April 4th, 2063.

Picard: April 4th?

Riker: The day before First Contact.

Then later in the missile silo just after Crusher beams out with Lily, Picard states, "We have less than 14 hours before this ship has to be launched." This places the film sometime after 9 p.m. on April 4th. There are numerous other references to time, but I'll skip to Picard's Log entry at the end of the film: "Captain's Log, April the 5th, 2063. The flight of the Phoenix was a success... again. The alien ship detected the warp signature and is on its way to rendezvous with history." The beginning of the film establishes April 5th to be the day of First Contact, which is reasserted by VGR's "Year of Hell". Therefore, the bulk of the movie (minus the 24th century) takes places within a 24-hour period.  Furthermore, the Vulcans landed in Montana within 12 hours of the Phoenix's flight, given the landing at night.

The escape pods were launched before 11:10 a.m. on April the 5th, as deducted from Riker's time estimates throughout the film.  Therefore, Picard had roughly 6 to 11 hours to retrieve the escape pods before the Vulcans landed. I'm having a temporary brain fart on the episode's name, but VGR had the ability of beaming an entire shuttlecraft into the shuttlebay.  The Enterpise E is superior to Voyager, so it would have this same ability. Retrieving the escape pods via the transporter would be a non-issue and expediant.

Returning to the issue of lunar orbit, you are correct in pointing out the moon's gravitational influence over earth and potential impact on the Enterprise. However, this does not negate the possibility of the Enterprise leaving earth orbit for lunar orbit in preparation of the Vulcan's approach. It has further been established that shutting down all power and hanging over a planet's magnetic poles can confuse an opponent's sensors ("Peak Performance" ,TNG). This could have easily been done and referenced, thereby negating any reference to the moon.  But instead, Worf's comment suggests the moon as the central body for interference, not earth.

I completely agree that the Enterprise was in earth orbit when La Forge centered Cochrane's telescope upon it. I only contend the Enterprise could have left earth orbit sometime after the Phoenix's Warp Flight and the retrieval of the escape pods, but before the Vulcan's approach to earth. I also agree that the lunar orbit is too far out of transporter range, which has been established to be 40,000 km and noted in my last post. However, if full impulse is 1/4th light speed per the Encyclopedia's Comparative Speed Scale, then the Enterprise can travel from the moon to earth in as little as 5.38 sec. The Enterprise could slide in, beam their people out, and be back at the moon in 14 sec, 30 sec when accounting for human lag time.

Lily watching the vortex means nothing other than the Vortex was very bright.  It is true the Enterprise could be seen, but only as a pinpoint of light.  The international Space Station is 51 meters in lengt, and maintains an orbital altitude between 278 km and 460 km. The space station is 40 km shy of being in the exosphere, and though it appears as a pinpoint of light, can be seen from earth. The Enterprise E is almost 700 meters long, over 13x as large as the space station. I don't thinking it would have to be in orbit to see it as a pinpoint of light.  I think Geordi used the telescope to offer Cochrane more detail when, specfically to show it wasn't a satellite or aircraft, when it was definitively in orbit.



AWESOME RESPONSE!!

My thing about the weeks between detection and landing was an attempt to make an excuse for FC...You worked out the time very well.

I also agree about beaming the escape pods back but keep in mind they have to do this while evading detection by the Vulcan ship which is on the way. Not that it is impossible but they would have to stay in the moon's effective gravity field to mask the warp signature and for that matter the SHIP HERSELF while getting into transporter range for geosych or near geosynch over the South Pacific...

Here's another silly point to ponder...After Data punctured the coolant tanks is the warp reactor still operational? If not then would they have the power to do all that transporting? I guess the impulse engines would be supplying ship's power at that point...

lostshaker

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Report this Oct. 31 2010, 10:33 am

"We also can assume that the Vulcans landed their ship and not a shuttle on Earth and their scanners could not detect 1701-E from the ground. But their ship couldn't detect the transporter beam right in front of it?" - Whorf23


I forgot to address this very good point in the last post. First, we do not know the status of transportater technology in the 21st Century with regard to the Vulcans. Indeed their experience with it remains enigmatic in the 22nd Century, despite other aliens like the Klingons possessing it ("Marauders", ENT). I do not take any issue to 24th Century Federation technology, which is no doubt built from Vulcan technology, being elusive to 22nd Century Vulcan technology. To that end, in "Trials and Tribble-ations", O'Brien has the following conversation:


O'Brien: The original Enterprise used an old-style duotronic sensor array. If we wait for just the right point in the scan cycle, we can decloak the Defiant for almost three seconds without being detected.


Sisko: Is that enough time to transport us aboard?


O'Brien: Barely.


While this is not necessarily reflective of Vulcan technology, sensor voids are nothing new and appear to be relatively common in Trek. It would be logical for the Enterprise E with 24th Century technology to take similar advantage of 22nd Century Vulcan technology.


"3a. Even with the detail that the message had to travel 200 years... The aliens were found ON EARTH so there is no way to know if these things were not already on their way or that their home is not closer because again since they were found on Earth. One assuption could be that wherever they were from was IN RANGE (for them) of Earth. Also these beings were determined to have been on Earth for 100 years. 22nd Centruy Earth had no way of knowing IF those aliens had managed to send a distress signal before their crash 100 years prior." - Whorf23


Here are the facts known in the 22nd Century: The "aliens" had previosuly been to earth roughly 100 years prior, were discovered to be hostile, and sent a message to the Delta Quadrant that would arrive in 200 years. Also, transcripts of Cochrane's Commencement Address at Princeton, where the physicist discussed the events of First Contact, existed. Cochrane knew the humans and the cybernetic life forms were from the 24th Century, because of the following line: "Don't you people from the 24th Century ever pee?" Archer, who had first hand interactions with S31 through his own armory officer, easily found these transcripts. While the assumptions you indicated earlier are equally valid, enough information existed to draw counter conclusions, even if undesirably balanced and acted upon.


"For S31 to squirrel away all that detail and of course issue gag orders to the whole crew of Nx-01 when any day now these Cybernetic Beings coudl return makes no logical sense." - Whorf23


First, Archer is going to make log entries and file reports, which includes his own assessments.  In turn, Starfleet Intelligence and S31 will weigh them accordingly. Following this, S31 does not have to issue gag orders to the whole crew of Enterprise. The cover up could have occurred anyime within the two centuries prior to official First Contact with the Borg (all that matters is why Picard didn't know anymore than what Guinan told him at System J25 - indeed information regarding the Borg would have been compounded with the Enterprise B's rescue of the El'Aurians). S31 could wait until the entire NX-01 crew died off, leaving no first hand accounts to contradict their (S31's) historical revision. The threat would further level off as time and space exploration progressed, offering some (though arguably limited) verification of Cochrane's story. And one cannot discount S31's support of an alliance due in large part to the Borg Threat.  There is safety in numbers and other alien worlds offering a protective margin to earth, which is deep in Federation Space.


"RE: Classified evidence due to pressures of time period... Again I have no idea what this all means..." - Whorf23


It refers to the political upheaval surrounding the Romulan Wars, as specified in the earlier post. For example, the balance of power could be shifted in the Earh-Romulan Wars if the Romulans acquired Borg nanoprobes and/or technological data gathered from the incident.


"How does anything in your paragraph dispute the FACTS in evidence?" - Whorf23


I believe you misinterpreted my statements, as I'm not disputing the facts, merely an ealier comment of yours. You stated, "So Section 31 hiding the information really serves no logical purpose and actually goes counter to Section 31's stated mission of protecting humans," You also ask, "What is the advantage of 'hiding' the data on this species?" I made reference to your questions in my very first response, but they were omitted due to user error of the quotes function. I have saved these questions for last, because of their nature.


The logic lies in one's organizational philosophy. So I agree and disagree with you. Based on a democracy's organizational arrangement, idealistic principles, and in accordance with Y Theory (The average human being learns, under proper conditions, not only to accept but also to seek responsibility; and the capacity to exercise... relatively high degrees of imagination, ingenuity, and creativity in the solution of organizational problems is widely, not narrowly, distributed in the population - McGregor, 1960, pp. 47-48), I agree that S31 would be illogical to withhold data regarding the Borg. By extension, S31's clandestine nature is incompatible within a democracy and therefore illogical. While security is needed, Starfleet Intelligence exists for that purpose. It's a recognizable body within a democracy that is accountable for its actions.


Now let us reframe our organizational philosophy to be in accordance with S31, which counter to democracy, employs a more classical and industrialized organizational frame. Such organizations traditionally operate by McGregor's X Theory, which holds: the average human being prefers to be directed, wishes to avoid responsibility, has relatively little ambition, and wants security above all (McGregor, 1960, pp. 33-34). The excessive need to withhold information for purposes of security is in accordance with such a philosophy, and therefore logical to those constituents. Indeed, such aggressive accumulation, clssification, and suppression of data are ways for secretive organizations to acquire power and offer self-justification of their own existence. (NOTE: from an objective stand point, this self-justification is highly delusional and stems from over compensation of one's insecurities.) The tight flow and control of information can also act as a lure for new recruits, who once assimilated go on to perpetuate the organization.


So returning to why S31 would conceal knowledge of Phlox's "cure"... let us compose the following scenario: Borg science and technological innovation increases exponentially with each assimilated world, so nanoprobes are constantly improving. Now let us further add the condition of Borg declassification, and Phlox's knowledge of mid-24th Century nanoprobes is widely dispersed and eventually understood, having built upon that foundation with two centuries worth of scientific investigation.


The latter condition could enhance the former condition if Borg Drones were to come along and assimilate such knowledge. Phlox's "cure" would therefore be rendered obsolute, as the Borg would adapt. By withholding the "cure", S31 could insure the survival of at least a small number of humans, even if the rest are to be sacrficed.


Once again, I state that I practice the logic of democractic ideals, but understand the logic of S31's position.

lostshaker

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Report this Oct. 31 2010, 11:02 am

"AWESOME RESONSE!!" - Whorf23


Thank you. I'm quite thoroughly enjoying our conversation and your clever rebuttals.


"Here's another silly point to ponder... After Data punctured the coolant tanks is the warp reactor still operational? If not then would they have the power to do all that transporting? I guess the impulse engines would be supplying ship's power at that point..." - Whorf23


For that matter, they need the power fupply to recreate the vortex - and I'm sure the impulse engines couldn't do that with a half gone deflector array. So, yeah, I believe they'd be in a rush to fix the warp core, but they do have numerous personnel to "ignite the midnight petroleum." And they don't have to get the Enterprise to peak performance, as they are returning to earth where a plethora of dry docks exist. The above all said, these minor and relatively easy to dismiss points do not concern me as much as others like... the film's introduction being fast paced and rushed or Picard leading the away team to the surface. Riker ended up going down anyway, so that was just a wasted time shuffle.


I did, however, like the holographic bullets klling the Borg. It's the overly complex standardization taken down by simplicity, reminiscent of the Ewoks taking down the Empire.

Whorf23_mkII

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Report this Nov. 02 2010, 9:10 pm

I really don't understand the quote funtions here so I will go luddite here and do it old school!!


"We also can assume that the Vulcans landed their ship and not a shuttle on Earth and their scanners could not detect 1701-E from the ground. But their ship couldn't detect the transporter beam right in front of it?" - Whorf23

I forgot to address this very good point in the last post. First, we do not know the status of transportater technology in the 21st Century with regard to the Vulcans. Indeed their experience with it remains enigmatic in the 22nd Century, despite other aliens like the Klingons possessing it ("Marauders", ENT). I do not take any issue to 24th Century Federation technology, which is no doubt built from Vulcan technology, being elusive to 22nd Century Vulcan technology. To that end, in "Trials and Tribble-ations", O'Brien has the following conversation:

O'Brien: The original Enterprise used an old-style duotronic sensor array. If we wait for just the right point in the scan cycle, we can decloak the Defiant for almost three seconds without being detected.

Sisko: Is that enough time to transport us aboard?

O'Brien: Barely.

While this is not necessarily reflective of Vulcan technology, sensor voids are nothing new and appear to be relatively common in Trek. It would be logical for the Enterprise E with 24th Century technology to take similar advantage of 22nd Century Vulcan technology.


Cool...The transporter thing was really a red herring on my part. Just a silly way of pointing out how much 1701-E had to do to avoid detection.

Next...

Here are the facts known in the 22nd Century: The "aliens" had previosuly been to earth roughly 100 years prior, were discovered to be hostile, and sent a message to the Delta Quadrant that would arrive in 200 years. Also, transcripts of Cochrane's Commencement Address at Princeton, where the physicist discussed the events of First Contact, existed. Cochrane knew the humans and the cybernetic life forms were from the 24th Century, because of the following line: "Don't you people from the 24th Century ever pee?" Archer, who had first hand interactions with S31 through his own armory officer, easily found these transcripts. While the assumptions you indicated earlier are equally valid, enough information existed to draw counter conclusions, even if undesirably balanced and acted upon.


I am afraid I cannot bend on this point...Forget about Cochrane's speech for a moment...Put yourself in the shoes of the Admiral Forrest at the time and look at the facts. Those 100 year old hostile ADVANCED aliens could very well have help on the way or they could be the last of their kind lost to an unfortunate accident..They could have been the victims of an even more powerful enemy...

The hard fact of the matter is that these aliens could be back the next day for all they know and the wisest and most prudent thing to do is to study their tech and do their best to devise defenses for it. They already know a great deal and they even have lots of it left over to experiment on. Of course there is an inherent danger to such an endeavor but what choice would they have? Just lie down and take up the rear when these things come back in a few years?

Another example of how something like this was handled correctly was the Japanese space Opera "Robotech." In that story a rather large spacecraft crashes on Earth...The humans explore the wreckafge and find some really scary stuff...Evidence of 50 foot aliens. So what do they do? They send every scientist and expert that Earth has to investigate and eventually they REBUILD the wrecked ship, reverse engineer transformable aircraft and weapons to fight the possible return of these 50 foot aliens. Of course on the maiden flight of this re-engineered ship the aliens return. Earth was still overmatched but at least they had a fighting chance...All because they acted prudently with the information they had been given. 22nd century Earth found out how to kill the very essence of this foe and did NOTHING? To borrow again from firsttvdrama guy: You mean you've had photographs, scans, and even samples of their technology for years after I made first contact with the Borg, and you never bothered to say anything? They assimilated me YOU BASTARDS!!- Jean-Luc Picard.


Look at human history... In 1903 Orville and Wilbur made the first controlled flight...in 1969-66 years later man walked on the moon and returned home safely. We did that from scratch. 22nd century Earth has scans and even samples of this futuristic tech and (if we follow the show's words) 200 years to exploit it.

I like this one:
First, Archer is going to make log entries and file reports, which includes his own assessments. In turn, Starfleet Intelligence and S31 will weigh them accordingly. Following this, S31 does not have to issue gag orders to the whole crew of Enterprise. The cover up could have occurred anyime within the two centuries prior to official First Contact with the Borg (all that matters is why Picard didn't know anymore than what Guinan told him at System J25 - indeed information regarding the Borg would have been compounded with the Enterprise B's rescue of the El'Aurians). S31 could wait until the entire NX-01 crew died off, leaving no first hand accounts to contradict their (S31's) historical revision. The threat would further level off as time and space exploration progressed, offering some (though arguably limited) verification of Cochrane's story. And one cannot discount S31's support of an alliance due in large part to the Borg Threat. There is safety in numbers and other alien worlds offering a protective margin to earth, which is deep in Federation Space.

Interesting thoughts here. You make good sense of the episode as presented but again I refer back to my response above about the nature of the threat and as written this makes no sense. The writers treated this like a Scooby Doo episode and not a serious sci-fi adventure...We Trek folk are smarter than that...I mean seriously we should be offended that they wrote this stuff this way. I mean this situation is as bad as Archer bargaining with the Xindi after being captured at Azati Prime...The man had nothing to bargain with and yet the enemy STILL listened to him...Why? to serve the plot. Shoddy writing my friends.

And the last bit about Borg Nano-probes constantly evolving...Another good one but exploitation of the nano-bot is not only for defense against the Borg, there are countless other applications for such a thing. The Borg repaired and upgraded a low warp shuttlecraft into a heavily armed battle wagon while on the move. I bet technology like that would have aided in the Romulan war or even the Klingon war. What about medical applications? Programming a few thousand nano-bots to attack Rigellian Fever or Irumodic Syndrome would be better than losing the patient. What if Phlox had some of those nano-bots in the Expanse when Trip Tucker got zapped? A nano treatment instead of a magic bean clone with a short life cycle? I prefer the former...Not to say that I didn't like "Similitude" but just to make a point.

And lastly we should all give a tip of the hat and a moment's silence for Ensign Lynch...

Matthias Russell

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Report this Nov. 03 2010, 4:10 am

That's some wordy arguments.

Whorf23_mkII

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Report this Nov. 03 2010, 11:43 pm

Quote: /view_profile/ @

Quote: /view_profile/ @

That's some wordy arguments.
Worf is BACK!!


Yeah Baby!! And just for fun...More "Regeneration" issues.

The Crash site:

Aside from basically making Picard look the fool the crash site makes no logical sense. The Borg Sphere was traveling through the sky when the spread of quantums hit it. Orbital dynamics would dictate the the debris field be hundreds if not thousands of square miles not some neat relatively small area in the Arctic. Arctic? The ship was over MONTANA when it was shot down. Google "Columbia Debris Field" and look at the different images of Shuttle Columbia's debris field.

The Debris itself:

So let's leave out the glaring fact the the very presence of that debris basically makes Picard look like an idiot...That debris was just sitting on the surface...After a century? Okay one way this could happen is if the debris fell into a glacier and over time the glacier moved and the debris was revealed.

But more likely that debris would have been buried under hundreds of feet of ice and snow...Heck, one scientist tripped over a borg's foot!!The real world example I cite for my assertion is "Galcier Girl." (google it) That aircraft was excavated from over 200 feet of ice after only 50 years.

lostshaker

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Report this Nov. 07 2010, 1:57 pm

My apologly for taking so long to respond -- the silence was in memory of Ensign Lynch.


"I am afraid I cannot bend on this point...Forget about Cochrane's speech for a moment...Put yourself in the shoes of the Admiral Forrest at the time and look at the facts. Those 100 year old hostile ADVANCED aliens could very well have help on the way or they could be the last of their kind lost to an unfortunate accident..They could have been the victims of an even more powerful enemy..." -Whorf23


With all due respect to Admiral Forrest, he is one admiral among many. He undoubtably has influence, but not sole control of Starfleet. Forrest also has a history of listening and trusting Archer, so again I point to Cochrane's speech and Archer's assumptions. If one were to dismiss this possibility and put it aside, as suggested, then one would be as negligent as Picard with regards to the remaining debris (NOTE: I do not want Picard to become a focal point for discussion - I've got my own minor issues with First Contact - but would rather focus on ENT).


One must also not underestimate S31, as it has influenced events and people in the past and future (Admiral Ross for example). One possibility: S31 may have been aware of Cochrane's story sometime prior to "Regeneration". Their investigation and search for supportive evidence could have initiated the polar dig and subsequent events.


"The hard fact of the matter is that these aliens could be back the next day for all they know and the wisest and most prudent thing to do is to study their tech and do their best to devise defenses for it. They already know a great deal and they even have lots of it left over to experiment on. Of course there is an inherent danger to such an endeavor but what choice would they have? Just lie down and take up the rear when these things come back in a few years?

Another example of how something like this was handled correctly was the Japanese space Opera "Robotech." In that story a rather large spacecraft crashes on Earth...The humans explore the wreckafge and find some really scary stuff...Evidence of 50 foot aliens. So what do they do? They send every scientist and expert that Earth has to investigate and eventually they REBUILD the wrecked ship, reverse engineer transformable aircraft and weapons to fight the possible return of these 50 foot aliens. Of course on the maiden flight of this re-engineered ship the aliens return. Earth was still overmatched but at least they had a fighting chance...All because they acted prudently with the information they had been given. 22nd century Earth found out how to kill the very essence of this foe and did NOTHING? To borrow again from firsttvdrama guy: You mean you've had photographs, scans, and even samples of their technology for years after I made first contact with the Borg, and you never bothered to say anything? They assimilated me YOU BASTARDS!!- Jean-Luc Picard." - Whorf23


First, you assume that because Starfleet has 24th Century Borg technology in its possession, Starfleet engineers will be able to understand it, duplicate it, and refine it. This is not necessarily true. You even indicate this by noting the risk involved in such an effort. Second, the above wants the episode to do more than it did, which could have been followed up at a later time in another episode or arc. I will resolve points one and two by directing attention to a fifth season episode that was in the works before ENT's cancellation:


Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens pitched a story with Alice Krige as a Starfleet medical technician who makes contact with the Borg from Season 2 ("Regeneration") and becomes the Borg Queen. utbound&f=Star_Trek%3A_Enterprise&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftrekmovie.com%2F2007%2F09%2F22%2Finterview-gar-judy-reeves-stevens-talk-mars-and-enterprise%2F%23more-1048">[8]"


Clearly, ENT writers wanted to follow up on "Regeneration" but never got the chance. Hypothetically, S31 could have funded this medical technician's research.  Motivated by the desire to clean Archer's mess, they'd set out to: collect all remaining technology and debris for study; secure it from potential threats; and prevent it from resurfacing through randomly passing ships. I can see a scenario where - because space is so vast - the medical technician is injected with nanoprobes to form a connection with the Borg from "Regeneration". The hope would be to activate their subspace tracking signals, so that Starfleet could pinpoint their precise coordinates. The M.T. knows of Phlox's "cure", but is exposed too long to the nanoprobes. The nanoprobes take over her neural functions, assimilate the "cure", and nullify it. Ultiamtely, S31 works behind the scenes, so it's hard to say what they did and didn't do in response to this threat. There is no evidence for or against.


"...exploitation of the nano-bot is not only for defense against the Borg, there are countless other applications for such a thing. The Borg repaired and upgraded a low warp shuttlecraft into a heavily armed battle wagon while on the move. I bet technology like that would have aided in the Romulan war or even the Klingon war." - Whorf23


While there are other applications, I again point to the possibility that it was simply beyond their technological sophistication. And Archer could use that reprogrammable virus picked up in "Extinction" to fight Romulans or Klingons, instead of nanoprobes. With nanoprobes you still risk turning your enemy into a Borg, which would be a greater threat.

lostshaker

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Report this Nov. 07 2010, 2:26 pm

"The Borg Sphere was traveling through the sky when the spread of quantums hit it. Orbital dynamics would dictate the the debris field be hundreds if not thousands of square miles not some neat relatively small area in the Arctic. Arctic? The ship was over MONTANA when it was shot down. Google "Columbia Debris Field" and look at the different images of Shuttle Columbia's debris field." - Whorf23


The above then suggests that Picard recovered the debris he could detect. But if the debris was located near the magnetic poles, then it may have remained undetectable. Data suggests such a phenomenon in "Peak Performance". Though I do grant the debris field was massive. One possibility is that immediately following the sphere's explosion, the debris was ionized and therefore attracted to the pole.


"That debris was just sitting on the surface...After a century? Okay one way this could happen is if the debris fell into a glacier and over time the glacier moved and the debris was revealed... But more likely that debris would have been buried under hundreds of feet of ice and snow...Heck, one scientist tripped over a borg's foot!!" - Whorf23


Either S31 got to it first, then handed it over to Starfleet or global warming is still a problem in the 22nd Century.

Whorf23_mkII

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Report this Nov. 08 2010, 10:28 pm

Yes Lynch was a good man...

With all due respect to Admiral Forrest, he is one admiral among many. He undoubtably has influence, but not sole control of Starfleet. Forrest also has a history of listening and trusting Archer, so again I point to Cochrane's speech and Archer's assumptions. If one were to dismiss this possibility and put it aside, as suggested, then one would be as negligent as Picard with regards to the remaining debris (NOTE: I do not want Picard to become a focal point for discussion - I've got my own minor issues with First Contact - but would rather focus on ENT).

One must also not underestimate S31, as it has influenced events and people in the past and future (Admiral Ross for example). One possibility: S31 may have been aware of Cochrane's story sometime prior to "Regeneration". Their investigation and search for supportive evidence could have initiated the polar dig and subsequent events. -lostshaker

Good points but in all actuality there are so many people involved that even S31 really couldn't contain this event. And again why would they want to. The threat IS legitimate and has been seen by many. Even people we never saw on screen. The science team was relaying their data back to whomever they reported to...NOT Admiral Forrest mind you.

I too am with you on some First Contact issues so we should leave Picard out of it as much as we can.

First, you assume that because Starfleet has 24th Century Borg technology in its possession-lostshaker

Yes they do, and plenty of it. The Borg were from the 24th century and they left behind all manner of equipment aboard NX-01. NX-01 also blew out a few "proto-Borgs" in to space during the chase. We have seen that Borg drones CAN survive the vaccuum of space without spacesuits...They also survived a quantum attack, re-entry and being frozen in ice for 100 years.

Charles Tucker was able to manipulate this tech to release its hold on NX-01. He did this in a very short period of time. Also the tech aboard NX-01 would have to be removed at some point...I would guess at a Starbase so the aforementioned Section 31 could take charge of it or take it to a science station in some remote area (Cold Station 13?) to be studied.

Starfleet engineers will be able to understand it, duplicate it, and refine it. This is not necessarily true-lostshaker

Much like immunology, science is a wonderful thing. It is not like a cave man finding an I-Phone here. These scientists already would have knowledge of what these things can do and how they do it thanks to Phlox. So maybe they can't duplicate it but there are other things they could do with it...Like figure out how it works and devise a defense against it...Remember, Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works crew had to figure out how to concoct jet fuel that wouldn't ignite in the tanks at high velocities,serve as a lubricant, hydraulic fluid, and heat sink for aircraft systems...From scratch, they didn't have a sample of any of this miracle substance beforehand but in the time it took to create the SR-71 blackbird, the chemists created the fuel for the legendary aircraft.

How many times in all of Star Trek have our intrepid heroes found the answer in a relatively small amount of time. Like when Scotty figured out how to connect a Romulan cloaking device to 1701? Or Geordi took some THEORETICAL specs on a metaphasic shield and created one strong enough for 1701-D to hide from Lor in the corona of a star!

Earth had the tech, and was witness to some of its capabilities. That is kind of a head start.

Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens pitched a story with Alice Krige as a Starfleet medical technician who makes contact with the Borg from Season 2 ("Regeneration") and becomes the Borg Queen. utbound&f=Star_Trek%3A_Enterprise&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftrekmovie.com%2F2007%2F09%2F22%2Finterview-gar-judy-reeves-stevens-talk-mars-and-enterprise%2F%23more-1048">[8]" lostshaker

I couldn't make that link work but I did dig around looking for this information and found it...Interesting. And if I do say myself quite fitting with Manny Coto's Trek. But their proposed story fits along with logic in that Future Queenie was a researcher looking into the Borg and how they work. It also sets up a rather nice predestination paradox.


While there are other applications, I again point to the possibility that it was simply beyond their technological sophistication. And Archer could use that reprogrammable virus picked up in "Extinction" to fight Romulans or Klingons, instead of nanoprobes. With nanoprobes you still risk turning your enemy into a Borg, which would be a greater threat-lostshaker

Phlox was able to figure out how they worked. (nano-bots) He also figured out one way to kill them. Tucker, while under pressure was able to loosen the hold this tech had on NX-01. In a controlled enviornment with a safety protocol of an nice Omicron radiation shower surely the species that went from walking on Earth to walking on the moon in 60 years could figure something out.

Oh and another thing..."Extinction???" That virus would not make a good weapon but I get your point. I try NOT to think about that episode...So silly and so wrongly placed in Season 3. The episode did nothing to advance the overall plot of season 3. But I digress.

Matthias Russell

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Report this Nov. 10 2010, 4:35 am

Having just watched the episode, I can accept it and heres why. As the Americas were explored and colonized, often natives were found with european objects but the origin was unknown. The natives may have had legends of white men and their things but they didn't have a collective memory of who the strangers were, what they were called, our where they came from. Only after settlers became permanent and contact was regular could you say the worlds were engaging one another. In this episode, the name borg was never used. No one knew who or what they were or for sure how they got to earth. Until tng, starfleet was like those american natives, having an awareness if a foreign power and their tech but not knowing what they were. Also, section 31 no doubt suppressed borg information to analyze them quietly and to not alarm the public. It is not unheard of for substantial but brief events to go unforgotten in history.

lostshaker

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Report this Nov. 10 2010, 7:56 pm

"Good points but in all actuality there are so many people involved that even S31 really couldn't contain this event." - Whorf23



On that note: 1) Earlier in our debate, I suggested how S31 could wait until a much later date to "dispute" and hide the evidence.  2) Or... if S31 initiated the polar dig, as postulated, they could have learned - in Q's own words: Don't provoke the Borg! Now, and I grant, that is probably too much to hope for. But the Borg drones were far more than what anyone could expect. Maybe... possibly... humanity evolved to learn a lesson (I'm an optimist). I'd like to believe S31 started out good, but was corrupted over time.



"And again why would they (S31) want to." - Whorf23



The devil in the dark... I'm going to flip my argument around for a moment and postulate another alternative, for only if we examine all possibilities and motivations can we solve the puzzle and arrive at a mutual conclusion. Let's suppose S31 was able to back engineer these nanoprobes per your suggestion. The technology would offer S31 power (much as Admiral Dougherty pointing to warp drive transforming Romulan thugs into an Empire  - INS), which fits its authoritarian and clandestine nature. Nanoprobes could be used in subversive manners, such as assassination attempts or "miracles". But if Earth and the Federation don't largely employ the technology, then few - if any - would suspect nanoprobes in an autopsy and probably miss the little bugs. Also, deniability would exist for what S31 claims to protect. The problem with authoritarian organizations is that they concentrate power in the hands of few, rather than many. Nanoprobes, at the very least, represent the potential for a great deal of power.



The possible use of advanced (and thus withheld) technology was even suggested by Kira in DS9's "Inquisition":



Kira: We went over Julian's quarters, but we couldn't find any residual transporter signatures. So either they got him off the station some other way, or they have transporter technology that we can't detect.



S31 would further want to contain the event in accordance with the mentality that follows classical management, from which S31 is born. Classical management follows McGregor's Theory X, a principle of which holds: The average human being prefers to be directed, wishes to avoid responsibility, has relatively little ambition, and wants security above all (McGregor, 1960, pp. 33-34). Such organizations, operating from this principle, tend to withhold information to prevent public fear. In "Inquisition", Sloan says as much with the following...



Sloan: Really. How many lives do you suppose you've saved in your medical career?
Bashir: What has that got to do with anything?
Sloan: Hundreds? Thousands? Do you suppose that those people give a damn that you lied to get into Starfleet Medical? I doubt it. We deal with threats to the Federation that jeopardize its very survival. If you knew how many lives we've saved, I think you'd agree that the ends do justify the means.


And in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges":



Sloan: The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men of conscience, men of principle, men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section Thirty one exists. Someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong.



I personally don't agree with this philosophy, but others do, and thus it is practiced.


"The threat IS legitimate and has been seen by many. Even people we never saw on screen. The science team was relaying their data back to whomever they reported to..." - Whorf23



While I agree the threat is legitimate, the number of witnesses is questionable.  We know 83 humans, 1 Vulcan, and 1 Denobulan had contact with the Borg.  Not all 83 humans had contact, but ENT is a small ship and word gets around.  A few more humans had contact, but they were effectively assimilated. And though the researchers transmitted their original data back to Starfleet, they could have easily been sending it straight to S31 agents, thus limiting the numbers with access. While not likely and not my own belief, I still must acknowledge such a possibility however remote. Then of course there are the ENT's audio and visual logs to contend with. But information can be classified with officers being ordered not to discuss it with anyone. It is surprisingly shocking how readily people trust others in a position of authority.



"Charles Tucker was able to manipulate this tech to release its hold on NX-01. He did this in a very short period of time. Also the tech aboard NX-01 would have to be removed at some point..." and "Phlox was able to figure out how they worked. (nano-bots) He also figured out one way to kill them. Tucker, while under pressure was able to loosen the hold this tech had on NX-01." - Whorf23



Spock noted in TWOK, "it has always been easier to destroy than to create." Phlox’s physiology was notably different given his slower rate of assimilation. Just because he could survive the omicron radiation, doesn't mean others - specifically humans - can too. 



"Much like immunology, science is a wonderful thing. It is not like a cave man finding an I-Phone here. These scientists already would have knowledge of what these things can do and how they do it thanks to Phlox. So maybe they can't duplicate it but there are other things they could do with it...Like figure out how it works and devise a defense against it...Remember, Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works crew had to figure out how to concoct jet fuel that wouldn't ignite in the tanks at high velocities,serve as a lubricant, hydraulic fluid, and heat sink for aircraft systems...From scratch, they didn't have a sample of any of this miracle substance beforehand but in the time it took to create the SR-71 blackbird, the chemists created the fuel for the legendary aircraft." - Whorf23



There is a microscope in the Smithsonian Institute known as the Universal Light Microscope. Royal Raymond Rife, an electrical and optical engineer, built it in 1929. This device consisted of over 5,000 parts, specially designed by Rife himself, and allowed for magnifications unheard of for light microscopes at the time. It also allowed Rife and many other doctors to view germs, viruses, and bacteria in their live states without killing them. Electrical microscopes of the time killed the specimens comparatively. Many have tried to replicate the device, but to date have been unsuccessful with 80 years of trial and error. The microscope clearly worked, however, because pictures of various microbes exist as evidence and were subsequently documented in scientific journals.



Then there is Nikola Tesla and Philo Farnsworth... they make for an interesting read. "Warehouse 13" isn't joking when they said Farnsworth "dabbled' with Fusion. So history contains examples for and against both our stances.


"How many times in all of Star Trek have our intrepid heroes found the answer in a relatively small amount of time. Like when Scotty figured out how to connect a Romulan cloaking device to 1701? Or Geordi took some THEORETICAL specs on a metaphasic shield and created one strong enough for 1701-D to hide from Lor in the corona of a star!" - Whorf23


This happened too many times and it annoyed me to a fair degree, at least the half where they were always able to integrate alien technology on a whim. All the series are guilty of it. Not being able to do it so easily, especially as early as ENT, affords a greater degree of believability. This is arguably a case.



"But their proposed story fits along with logic in that Future Queenie was a researcher looking into the Borg and how they work. It also sets up a rather nice predestination paradox." - Whorf23


It's a sweet predestination paradox, perhaps my favorite in Trek should it have come to pass.



"Oh and another thing..."Extinction???" try NOT to think about that episode...So silly and so wrongly placed in Season 3. The episode did nothing to advance the overall plot of season 3." - Whorf23


Fair enough. I liked "Extinction" as a stand-alone episode. I've said before that it was "Threshold" done correctly.  Season 3 was asking many things, extinction being a primary topic for both Humans and Xindi. However, I can easily see how it would be viewed as a bump in the road.

Whorf23_mkII

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Report this Nov. 14 2010, 7:06 pm

[quote]

"Good points but in all actuality there are so many people involved that even S31 really couldn't contain this event." - Whorf23




On that note: 1) Earlier in our debate, I suggested how S31 could wait until a much later date to "dispute" and hide the evidence. 2) Or... if S31 initiated the polar dig, as postulated, they could have learned - in Q's own words: Don't provoke the Borg! Now, and I grant, that is probably too much to hope for. But the Borg drones were far more than what anyone could expect. Maybe... possibly... humanity evolved to learn a lesson (I'm an optimist). I'd like to believe S31 started out good, but was corrupted over time.




Yeah I believe that as well...from what we saw on DS9 with Bashir they eventually became a really corrupt group.


On your "Devil In The Dark argument...Again sir I am impressed. You make some really good points again. But this "transporter tech" thing was never revealed was it? So like Major Kira said it was this undetectable tech OR something else...Could have been this something else could it not?





"The threat IS legitimate and has been seen by many. Even people we never saw on screen. The science team was relaying their data back to whomever they reported to..." - Whorf23



While I agree the threat is legitimate, the number of witnesses is questionable. We know 83 humans, 1 Vulcan, and 1 Denobulan had contact with the Borg. Not all 83 humans had contact, but ENT is a small ship and word gets around. A few more humans had contact, but they were effectively assimilated. And though the researchers transmitted their original data back to Starfleet, they could have easily been sending it straight to S31 agents, thus limiting the numbers with access. While not likely and not my own belief, I still must acknowledge such a possibility however remote. Then of course there are the ENT's audio and visual logs to contend with. But information can be classified with officers being ordered not to discuss it with anyone. It is surprisingly shocking how readily people trust others in a position of authority.




Come on!! Now this organization of scientists has been subverted by S31 before the episode even began? Neither of us know how the information flow was handled on this science mission to the wreck site...But suffice it to say, Starfleet sent NX-01 all the data they could...They did this to give NX-01 the best chance to handle these beings and possibly get our people back. So the info went from the "Science Division" to the "Exploration Division" (Sorry, I am really not sure what the hierarchy is in the Starfleet but I think we could agree that NX-01 and these scientists report back to different bosses.)

And another word on this classification of data...I personally assume that pretty much ALL things like this happening on Starships is classified...I mean I don't think Archer's encounters with "Future Guy" were told on the 11 O'clock news. Again just because data is classified does not mean it is forgotten and since the threat is possibly imminent, it would make logical sense for Earth to put a few of their best and brightest into studying the encounter and all the data and material left over from it. They could be back the next day...Not necessarily 200 years or more that was said in the episode. That statement made no logical sense with the information presented in the episode...An not offense here...You don't need Section 31 to make that idea work.




"Charles Tucker was able to manipulate this tech to release its hold on NX-01. He did this in a very short period of time. Also the tech aboard NX-01 would have to be removed at some point..." and "Phlox was able to figure out how they worked. (nano-bots) He also figured out one way to kill them. Tucker, while under pressure was able to loosen the hold this tech had on NX-01." - Whorf23



Spock noted in TWOK, "it has always been easier to destroy than to create." Phlox’s physiology was notably different given his slower rate of assimilation. Just because he could survive the omicron radiation, doesn't mean others - specifically humans - can too.





Not the point... Like I said, he figured out ONE WAY to kill them...Just because humans couldn't survive that cure doesn't mean that they couldn't figure out something else that would work? Since they have the "safety" of a containment possibility, they could experiment more...Like when diseases are made...They make the cure and then the disease. 22nd century humans has one cure.



"Much like immunology, science is a wonderful thing. It is not like a cave man finding an I-Phone here. These scientists already would have knowledge of what these things can do and how they do it thanks to Phlox. So maybe they can't duplicate it but there are other things they could do with it...Like figure out how it works and devise a defense against it...Remember, Kelly Johnson's Skunk Works crew had to figure out how to concoct jet fuel that wouldn't ignite in the tanks at high velocities,serve as a lubricant, hydraulic fluid, and heat sink for aircraft systems...From scratch, they didn't have a sample of any of this miracle substance beforehand but in the time it took to create the SR-71 blackbird, the chemists created the fuel for the legendary aircraft." - Whorf23



There is a microscope in the Smithsonian Institute known as the Universal Light Microscope. Royal Raymond Rife, an electrical and optical engineer, built it in 1929. This device consisted of over 5,000 parts, specially designed by Rife himself, and allowed for magnifications unheard of for light microscopes at the time. It also allowed Rife and many other doctors to view germs, viruses, and bacteria in their live states without killing them. Electrical microscopes of the time killed the specimens comparatively. Many have tried to replicate the device, but to date have been unsuccessful with 80 years of trial and error. The microscope clearly worked, however, because pictures of various microbes exist as evidence and were subsequently documented in scientific journals.



Then there is Nikola Tesla and Philo Farnsworth... they make for an interesting read. "Warehouse 13" isn't joking when they said Farnsworth "dabbled' with Fusion. So history contains examples for and against both our stances.




I think I am being misunderstood...I really don't mean to imply that 1701-D should have been able to handle the Borg in system J-25...My issue is that they KNEW NOTHING...With all the detail NX-01 had...Along with the fact that these beings were photographed and scanned...I am not saying that a DIRECT link could be established in minutes but at least a similarity could have been discovered. Like Crusher in "The Naked Now..." She took the basics of what was affecting her crew and found a similar malady from 1701...She used what 1701 found as a BASIS for her cure and after a few attempts it worked...




"But their proposed story fits along with logic in that Future Queenie was a researcher looking into the Borg and how they work. It also sets up a rather nice predestination paradox." - Whorf23


It's a sweet predestination paradox, perhaps my favorite in Trek should it have come to pass.




Maybe the writers will write a novel? How cool would that be?

Whorf23_mkII

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Report this Nov. 14 2010, 7:30 pm

Quote: Matthias Russell @ Nov. 10 2010, 4:35 am

>Having just watched the episode, I can accept it and heres why. As the Americas were explored and colonized, often natives were found with european objects but the origin was unknown. The natives may have had legends of white men and their things but they didn't have a collective memory of who the strangers were, what they were called, our where they came from. Only after settlers became permanent and contact was regular could you say the worlds were engaging one another. In this episode, the name borg was never used. No one knew who or what they were or for sure how they got to earth. Until tng, starfleet was like those american natives, having an awareness if a foreign power and their tech but not knowing what they were. Also, section 31 no doubt suppressed borg information to analyze them quietly and to not alarm the public. It is not unheard of for substantial but brief events to go unforgotten in history.


 


I can answer some of this... On your "Collective memory thing." 22nd century Earth really doesn't need a "collective memory" in this case. They have computers. The name BORG means nothing. Here is the simple explanation why: If a Martian appears at your door...Would he introduce HIMSELF to you as a Martian? Not likely...But he would still BE a Martian. This is because humans classify the things they discover...There was an old commercial for margerine where a native american lady is shucking an ear of CORN...she says "You call it corn...WE call it Maize.' Which is it? It is both is it not? So not knowing what the pale speechless automaton calls itself really doesn't matter in the grand scheme and even the petite scheme. 22nd century humans saw what they could do and how they acted so they would be given some sort of classification even if it was just a number like the Borg do. That information would be filed and more than likely distributed so that in case these beings or similar ones were encountered, people would know what they were possibly capable of...Look how many times the crew of 74656 quoted 1701-D log entries on the Q.


 


On your section 31 idea...How much "suppression" is S31 up to in those days? Did they "suppress" Future guy? How about Daniels? The "Big eared aliens" (The Ferengi that Archer never bothered to get ANY information on, despite having the best engineer and a supermathamliguist capable of xeno linguistics AND code breaking) What I am saying is that most of the details of most of the everyday goings on aboard starships and even in today's military is not for public consumption. So they wouldn't have to suppress anything...The military could have easily worked on the Borg problem and no regular earthling would have been the wiser...Just like we do today. For instance, back in 1944 the Russians stole 3 intact B-29 bombers...The pinnacle of US Bomber tech at that time... The Soviets did not have the technological expertise but somehow five years later they had 300 copies in service...Do you think that anyone who didn't need to know knew about this undertaking? After Fermi and Oppenheimer harnessed the power of the atom, how many people knew about it...It was classified and yet they managed to create the weapon that ended the was with the Japanese...

KLINGONDOG

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Report this Nov. 14 2010, 7:48 pm

I liked the episode, one ENTs best. The way the whole Trek story ties in with the rest of the series.

bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'.

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