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Archer and T'pol's relationship

Middleman

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Report this Dec. 24 2009, 3:07 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Dec. 24 2009, 1:47 pm)
Re: Middleman, Dec. 23 2009, 3:57 pm

Knowing what a fan you are of Enterprise, I am humbled by your comments :)

I don't quite grant the 20/20 hindsight to B&B. Berman had been involved with Trek since season three of TNG and Braga since the last two years of TNG. We knew immediately what was wrong with Enterprise. Then we got the Ferengi. Then we got a year long Xindi arc. After a beautiful season four we got TATV, a Valentine or the middle finger from Braga as Connor Trinneer put it?

STXI... How many times did we hear they were respecting canon? Spock was already about three years old at the time of Nero's incurrsion. Whether it was the prime timeline being altered or a bubble/parallel universe sprung from the historical timeline because of time travel, much of previous canon was changed. Spock should have been bonded to T'Pring when he was seven years old being the example pertinent to the subject of Spock and Uhura.

A topic for other threads: The audience bought in to STXI because Trek fans were hungry for Trek and new/younger folks seem to be into spaz movies (my review of STXI). I am not impressed in the least with Abrams Trek. The actors, most of the story and the musical score was the saving grace of STXI for this Trek fan. For a $150 million movie with 2 1/2 years of preparation time available before the release, it was a joke on many levels. I am greatful for the interest many new fans appear to be taking in historical Trek because of STXI. We'll see how long this new shallow Trek lasts, a question I'm not the first to ponder...

I always will be an Enterprise fan. The series that brought me back to Trek after a 17 year absence will alway receive a special reverence from me. In the past 2 years since I "found" Enterprise I've watched each episode several times and I'm aware of most of its faults; but I enjoyed the series anyway. The whole goal is to be entertained, is it not? I guess that's why I'm so intolerant of some of the mindless bashers out there.

When I said 20/20 hind sight I wasn't talking about B&B, I meant that we as fans now understand how this series, one with so much potential, could have been made better. Berman still thinks he did nothing wrong and Braga only very recently is admitting mistakes. I would love to find that Connor quote, by the way.

Regarding Spock and Uhura, your right about being bonded to T'Pring, but clearly that was an inconvenient piece of canon they chose to ignore. They feel (and I think that they are right) that a Spock and Uhura relationship will draw an audience down the road, so they went with it. Same with Trip & T'Pol, it became a huge "fan favorite". That's why they are continuing it in the books; it sells. it would be interesting to see if Spock and Uhura develop the "Mating Bond". That's now canon in Vulcan relationships and if their romance continues, the bond should develop.

I'll catch you on another thread at another time for the rest of your comments on STXI. I share most of your views, even though I did like the movie. It's Christmas and I can't be discussing Star Trek all day.

batouyukinawa

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Report this Dec. 24 2009, 4:21 pm

Yeah, which was my point, yet no one addressed what I said earlier. I'm sick of forceful romances ala Spock/Uhura T'pol/Trip. I just don't see why every show has to have a romance. The new Batman actually tried to be different. Bruce Wayne has a romance but it's never pursued. Wow, imagine that. Something far closer to A&T or Mulder and Skully. Furthermore, it made it more interesting to watch. It's the chase and uncertainty that is intriguing. After they hit the sack, it's over. It's no longer interesting.

Middleman

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Report this Dec. 24 2009, 5:35 pm

Quote (batouyukinawa @ Dec. 24 2009, 4:21 pm)
I'm sick of forceful romances ala Spock/Uhura T'pol/Trip. I just don't see why every show has to have a romance.

I think you are being less than honest with us when you say that. If it had been Archer that ended up in T'Pol's bed instead of Trip, you would be doing end zone dances at the end of every episode. What's the point in beating this A/T thing to death. What was on screen and is in the books aren't going to change. They had a deep friendship and that was it. It should also be pretty clear to you by now that you are not going to change anyone's mind about A/T vs. TnT; and even if you did, it doesn't matter because it's all over with. Let it go and enjoy the holidays.

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 24 2009, 6:19 pm

Middleman, it's amazing how one could exercise such selective reading. I have clearly made the point several times that I never wanted A&T to ever have a romance. I only wanted it to be implied like it was. Essentially if you took out the T&T romance deal and left A&T relationship the way it was, I would have been doing the end zone dance. I like X-files, like Batman, Like TNG. Way way way way way better then ever seeing any of the characters finally do the deed. I guess you're someone who requires instant gratification, I do not.

BrotherofShran01

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Report this Dec. 25 2009, 8:34 am

Quote (Middleman @ Dec. 23 2009, 3:57 pm)
TB:
You know that I'm a man of few words. Your last post has to be one of the clearest and most concise explanations of the major issues surrounding Enterprise and the poor character development in the series that I have read to date. Grigori, Honeybee and I were discussing some of these same points in another thread and lamenting Enterprise's squandered potential.

Quote (trekbuff @ Dec. 23 2009, 1:27 pm)
There was a confusion between Archer and T'Pol about their feelings and their relationship. It was further confusing for them because they were male and female. They didn't understand their relationship and this is what caused problems for Trip. After a full seven seasons, just maybe Archer and T'Pol could have been t'hy'la, Trip and T'Pol could have been lovers and wedded and the three of them close friends just as Kirk, Spock and Bones.

Another brilliant observation! Frankly, this is actually how I saw it going down in the first place. Piss poor writing and planing lead to confusion for something that should have been so simple. And, this all could have been pulled off in far less than seven season, if planned correctly. 20/20 hind sight is a wonderful thing.

Regarding your point of T'Pol having Archer as a friend and colleague and Trip as a husband (a direction they are taking in the books, by the way); isn't this what JJ Abrams is doing in the Pseudo-Trek? Spock and Uhura as lovers and a deep friendship with Kirk. The audience seems to like it. All is possible if written correctly.

"Interesting. At this time, I agree that Archer and T'Pol are friends and have a friendship like Kirk and Spock.

Middleman

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Report this Dec. 25 2009, 8:57 am

Quote (batouyukinawa @ Dec. 24 2009, 6:19 pm)
Middleman, it's amazing how one could exercise such selective reading. I have clearly made the point several times that I never wanted A&T to ever have a romance. I only wanted it to be implied like it was. Essentially if you took out the T&T romance deal and left A&T relationship the way it was, I would have been doing the end zone dance. I like X-files, like Batman, Like TNG. Way way way way way better then ever seeing any of the characters finally do the deed. I guess you're someone who requires instant gratification, I do not.

It's not really selective reading at all, it's more like reading between the lines and taking what you are saying now in context with your previous posts, particularly the ones when you first showed up here and else where.

I'll suspend my better judgment for the moment and assume that you are sincere about your above statement. I'll ask you my questions, which you didn't answer, again:

* What's the point in beating this A/T thing to death when what was on screen and in the books are not going to change?
* Are you trying to change peoples minds about it, when it seems to be that you can't or that everyone else just doesn't care?
* Why can't you just let it go? It doesn't matter because it's all over with.

Now as far as instant gratification goes, when it come to my entertainment; Yes I want it. That's what I'm paying for.

BrotherofShran01

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Report this Dec. 25 2009, 9:58 am

*Peeks in, Looks at the above post...Keeps on trucking...*

Middleman

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Report this Dec. 25 2009, 10:52 am

Quote (BrotherofShran01 @ Dec. 25 2009, 9:58 am)
*Peeks in, Looks at the above post...Keeps on trucking...*

:laugh:

BrotherofShran01

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Report this Dec. 25 2009, 12:18 pm

Merry Christmas to the Enterprise crew!

batouyukinawa

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Report this Dec. 25 2009, 1:19 pm

That's the point middleman, what was on the screen wasn't cut and dry. It may have been for T&T, but the same could not be said for A&T.

batouyukinawa

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Report this Dec. 28 2009, 4:14 am

Ok, we can do better then that. *bump*

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 29 2009, 6:28 pm

Clearly, very few liked Archer.

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