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Archer and T'pol's relationship

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 1:26 am

I merely want to discuss Archer and T'pol here. I felt their dynamic highly intriguing, as well as thought provoking. It's not cut and dry, therefore I feel there is much that can be discussed, so long as we do not get into a tired A&T vs T&T debate.

There's far more between these characters then meets the eye. It's a very deep complex relationship that I feel could go in many interesting directions. I want to focus on specifics, and discuss these in detail. I'm interested in other's perception of given scenes. I want to learn more, therefore I invite all to make their observations clear.

I've started watching again from the beginning. I'm on BB, and I'm surprised how much I forgot T&A's relation in BB. I'll post anything note worthy as come to find it.

Feel free to post anything as well...

Narada

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POSTS: 4010

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 2:23 am

Good topic! One thing I notice with Archer and T'pol is she was looking for Archer to show that he was a capable Captain. This was her responsibility to report with the Vulcans but there was another dynamic. When she started to learn he was a worthy Captain and friend we also see times when T'pol puts herself at risk to serve with the crew. We learn her character is very strong and intelligent but she also shows compassion and character. So she becomes reaffirmed by Archer and the crew as these relationships grow.

whyaduck

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POSTS: 3478

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 9:24 am

T'Pol's character changes so much towards humans and the main reason for that is Archer (and I don't mean Archer in a romantic sense). Just as he had preconceived notions of Vulcans, she had beliefs about humans, which he shattered (though not totally) as their relationship of friendship, trust, and loyalty grew. Though she didn't like to admit it, she grew emotional about him whenever she thought he was in danger. That didn't stop her from pointing out when she thought he was wrong or was letting his emotions/heart guide his decisions.

The second most important reason was the rest of the crew. She saw how they cared for each other and responded to each other, as well as to her. Another important point was her relationship with Phlox. As the only two aliens on board, the were thrown together and he often gave her advice that she took to heart.

Back to A Night in Sickbay, which I've discussed quite a few times. It's one of my favorite episodes. Until Phlox mentions sexual tension between Archer and T'Pol for their recent arguments, Archer never considered that. He's incredibly stressed, worried, cranky, and pissed off. Even after he began to wonder if Phlox was right, he was thinking of it in only a physical way, not a truly romantic way.

At the end of the episode, T'Pol realized what was going on and tactfully replied to him giving him an out without embarrassing him.

whyaduck

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Report this Dec. 18 2009, 9:31 am



batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 3:05 pm

Just finished watching BB. Archer and T'pol surprisingly made headway in their relationship even in this pilot episode. I think a definitive moment is when Archer risk his life to save her on Rigel.
It's at this point she notices something very admirable in Archer, and thus after a slight bit of berating from Trip; she decides to save Archer from the Suliban. I've also noticed T'pol's facial expression is almost null and void, which will be interesting to see how it becomes more expressive throughout the first season.

Cule

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Report this Dec. 18 2009, 3:37 pm

A/T had potential for becoming the next Kirk and Spock. You know, like what Picard and Guinan had - "beyond friends, beyond family," but strictly platonic. Sadly they never reached that level of intimacy. In all four seasons of ENT there wasn't a single intimate, entirely private conversation between the two.

Like, when T'Pol was forced to marry Koss... I really wanted to hear what Archer had to say about it. If there was ever a time for T'Pol to completely confide in a close friend (Archer), that was it. But nothing happened... Character moments = zero. I blame it on the writing.

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 5:32 pm

I'm not entirely sure T'pol would have felt comfortable confiding in Archer in that respect. It was more between her and Trip. Since T'pol and Archer never made a romantic pass at each other, I hardly think T'pol would have found it appropriate to involve him in such personal matters. If anything, it would have only complicated their relationship further. Remember, Trip was privy to this information clear back to "Breaking the Ice".  I'm sure T'pol wanted Archer there as much as Trip, but I do believe her ambiguous relationship to Archer; and the fact neither of them seemed to fully understand each others feelings towards each other, would have appeared overly presumptuous at best. This is why I feel it was never addressed.

Cule

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Report this Dec. 18 2009, 5:42 pm

Quote (batouyukinawa @ Dec. 18 2009, 11:32 pm)
I'm not entirely sure T'pol would have felt comfortable confiding in Archer in that respect.

Oh, I don't know... She definitely looked like she needed to talk to someone. And Trip wouldn't have been the right choice because he was too deeply involved in the whole matter. Too much emotional weight.

grigori

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Report this Dec. 18 2009, 5:46 pm

Quote (Cule @ Dec. 18 2009, 3:37 pm)
In all four seasons of ENT there wasn't a single intimate, entirely private conversation between the two.

... Character moments = zero. I blame it on the writing.

I think we CAN infer the intimacy was there, through juicy hints scattered through-out the show.

But your statement is correct, Cule, and I, too, would have liked to have seen some personal conversation a bit more explicit--a reward to those of us who realized how close they were becoming, how "devoted" their friendship was, if you don't try to read traditional romantic overtones into the word.

This thread has had a good start, guys.

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 5:49 pm

Yes, but T'pol didn't know at the time how Archer felt about her. Their relationship was never defined. Bringing this up to her Captain wouldn't seem appropriate in her mind. Essentially, she had no way of knowing where she stood. T'pol's not going to be presumptuous. With Trip, she had ascertained where she stood.

Cule

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Report this Dec. 18 2009, 6:02 pm

Quote (batouyukinawa @ Dec. 18 2009, 11:49 pm)
Yes, but T'pol didn't know at the time how Archer felt about her.

Hmmm... Archer never displayed any signs of having romantic feelings for T'Pol...

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 18 2009, 6:09 pm

Archer's expressive nature towards T'pol was vague at best. T'pol perhaps a little less vague, but still vague. You couldn't expect her to know where she stood.

batouyukinawa

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POSTS: 336

Report this Dec. 19 2009, 9:04 pm

Ah! I see. Clearly I wasn't presumptuous when ascertaining this was a predominant T&T shipper forum. Grigori is the only person I have found who has displayed a purely objective view point on all matters. T&A's relationship has 10x the content of T&T yet barely anyone has posted a thing. Interesting....especially considering these are the two main characters of the show. I hate to break it to the shippers, but I could find 10x more stills of Archer and T'pol. Ouch! Oh wait, that's right, it's because they are the TWO MAIN characters of the show.

grigori

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Report this Dec. 22 2009, 1:21 pm

whyaduck

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POSTS: 3478

Report this Dec. 22 2009, 2:38 pm



T'POL: Captain?
ARCHER: Why did you want me here?
T'POL: Because I trust you.
ARCHER: Then trust me. You were sent to apprehend him, not to judge him.

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