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Cogenitor

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 12:47 pm

Enterprise meets a race of people too good to be true. New technologies, super friendly no 'prime directive' type restrictions.

Captain gets to pilot a new ship, Malcolm gets his cheese on and everyone was happy.

And then there was Trip. Befriending a lonely sex slave instead of learning about a warp 7 engine. She couldn't read, write and no one cared about her. A lesser sex. A used individual.

ENGINEER: The antimatter stream is compressed before the deuterium's injected into the core.
TUCKER: So you don't need magnetic confinement.
ENGINEER: Let me bring up the schematics.
TUCKER: Where we come from, Earth, there are only two genders.

I sighed deeply and hence predicted the outcome. Especially after the recent string of "potato shows" I've been watching. A good 45 minutes but not really noteworthy. Certainly not worth a review from me.

Regardless, I watched anyway. She learns, asserts her rights as an individual and overcomes her circumstances. The captain returns and then blows everything I know about Star Trek out of the water!

COGENITOR: You don't understand. I can't go back.
ARCHER: Just until we resolve this.
COGENITOR: Trip said I have the same rights as they do.
ARCHER: It's not our place to tell you what rights you have. I'm sorry.
COGENITOR: Are you going to force me to leave?

SWEET FREAKING MERCY! What a though provoking ending. Do I agree? I'm not sure. Maybe. Maybe no. I keep teeter-tottering.

Given their mission, they cannot be on a righting the wrongs of the universe mission... but shouldn't we be making a case for our view? Any episode making me think that much is a winner to me.

Away, the last five minutes changed a rather boring episode into one of my favorite episodes thus far. Awesome!

grigori

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POSTS: 10463

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 12:52 pm

Hi Kludge.

Many of us love/hate the "skin-crawly" episodes, as I call them--the tough moral dilemmas, and this one gets HUGELY personal (for Trip, who causes a death).

I like the last scene between Trip and Archer: Archer struggles to keep his duty as Captain over-riding his empathy as friend in Trip's dressing-down. It's a tough, skin-crawly scene, and Archer's look when he turns away (he's not simply pi$$ed; he hurts for Trip but can't show it) nails it down as such.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 1:01 pm

Quote (grigori @ Dec. 02 2009, 9:52 pm)
Hi Kludge.

Many of us love/hate the "skin-crawly" episodes, as I call them--the tough moral dilemmas, and this one gets HUGELY personal (for Trip, who causes a death).

I like the last scene between Trip and Archer: Archer struggles to keep his duty as Captain over-riding his empathy as friend in Trip's dressing-down. It's a tough, skin-crawly scene, and Archer's look when he turns away (he's not simply pi$$ed; he hurts for Trip but can't show it) nails it down as such.

It odd too, because I can't see Picard, Janeway or especially Kirk making this decision. (Maybe Sisko)

And don't you believe some of Archers decision was based on trade with these people? In addition suicide seems pretty extreme after only a few hours. Considering what she/it learned, shouldn't there have been some social struggle. In a typical Star Trek script we would be expecting her/it to work for a change in her society.

grigori

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POSTS: 10463

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 1:08 pm

Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 1:01 pm)
Quote (grigori @ Dec. 02 2009, 9:52 pm)
Hi Kludge.

Many of us love/hate the "skin-crawly" episodes, as I call them--the tough moral dilemmas, and this one gets HUGELY personal (for Trip, who causes a death).

I like the last scene between Trip and Archer: Archer struggles to keep his duty as Captain over-riding his empathy as friend in Trip's dressing-down. It's a tough, skin-crawly scene, and Archer's look when he turns away (he's not simply pi$$ed; he hurts for Trip but can't show it) nails it down as such.

It odd too, because I can't see Picard, Janeway or especially Kirk making this decision. (Maybe Sisko)

And don't you believe some of Archers decision was based on trade with these people? In addition suicide seems pretty extreme after only a few hours. Considering what she/it learned, shouldn't there have been some social struggle. In a typical Star Trek script we would be expecting her/it to work for a change in her society.

The other Captains would never GET into that situation: future crews had all the rules laid out for them and established, but ENT's crew did not--that's the whole point. So Archer gets into hairy situations and hairy decisions future Captains never had to make.

"It" was incapable of social revolution, though that's what we're conditioned to expect after such an episode: the whole point was Its suppressed and limited world view. It was barely capable of standing up for itself because it had no exposure to the nuances of its own society.

That's where Trip made his HUGE mistake, EXPECTING it to be able to make such a psychological leap forward, all at once. Individuals, especially not Engineers, can't expect to change whole societies; as T'Pol had told Archer, those decisions are best left to whole GOVERNMENTS, nots Starship Captains.

SLagonia

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POSTS: 18170

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 1:20 pm

I hate this episode.  It's another one of those episodes that show someone as being totally and completely wrong dispite being right the entire time.  Trip did what any civilized person should have done, and Archer berated him for it simply because he was friends with the other captain.  

If I didn't know any better, I'd have said this was a critique of Bush Sr/Clinton era relations with China - That we ignored the human rights violations in order to get in good with the premier.  That's exactly what Archer reminded me of in this episode.

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 1:40 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:20 pm)
I hate this episode. ?It's another one of those episodes that show someone as being totally and completely wrong dispite being right the entire time. ?Trip did what any civilized person should have done, and Archer berated him for it simply because he was friends with the other captain. ?

If I didn't know any better, I'd have said this was a critique of Bush Sr/Clinton era relations with China - That we ignored the human rights violations in order to get in good with the premier. ?That's exactly what Archer reminded me of in this episode.

I can see that... Absolutely.  ST does get political and you can see that analogy. As a conservative and ST fan, I'm pretty used to this political pitch from them. Regardless I still enjoyed the ending. Even if I didn't agree with Archer.

whyaduck

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POSTS: 3478

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 1:49 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Dec. 03 2009, 1:20 pm)
I hate this episode. ¿It's another one of those episodes that show someone as being totally and completely wrong dispite being right the entire time. ¿Trip did what any civilized person should have done, and Archer berated him for it simply because he was friends with the other captain. ¿

If I didn't know any better, I'd have said this was a critique of Bush Sr/Clinton era relations with China - That we ignored the human rights violations in order to get in good with the premier. ¿That's exactly what Archer reminded me of in this episode.

T'Pol kept telling Trip to leave it alone because of the connections Archer was trying to make with the other captain, but I think Archer's position to Trip was a lot more than "he was friends with the other captain." A person died because of Trip's actions. A baby wouldn't be born because of Trip's actions. Plus, Archer knows how difficult it is to have to make these moral decisions for other species without clear guidance on what he can and can't do. This went far deeper than  Archer just being friends with the other captain.

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 1:54 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:46 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 1:40 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:20 pm)
I hate this episode. ?It's another one of those episodes that show someone as being totally and completely wrong dispite being right the entire time. ?Trip did what any civilized person should have done, and Archer berated him for it simply because he was friends with the other captain. ?

If I didn't know any better, I'd have said this was a critique of Bush Sr/Clinton era relations with China - That we ignored the human rights violations in order to get in good with the premier. ?That's exactly what Archer reminded me of in this episode.

I can see that... Absolutely. ?ST does get political and you can see that analogy. As a conservative and ST fan, I'm pretty used to this political pitch from them. Regardless I still enjoyed the ending. Even if I didn't agree with Archer.

You should have agreed with Archer. This is not a human rights issue.

The girl was a sex slave. How is that not human (whatever species) rights issue?

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 2:00 pm

Quote (whyaduck @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:49 pm)
A person died because of Trip's actions. A baby wouldn't be born because of Trip's actions. Plus, Archer knows how difficult it is to have to make these moral decisions for other species without clear guidance on what he can and can't do. This went far deeper than ?Archer just being friends with the other captain.

But those things came after. In my mind the captain should have thrown out the 'new technologies' and stood up for a moral imperative. Owning others is wrong.

I mean clearly when the Federation is founded, they support this. Look at all the mucking Kirk does in other cultures. Either way I disagree with someone claiming to hate the episode.

I loved it. What I hate are the mushy boring no thinking required episodes.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 2:32 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:30 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 1:54 pm)
Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:46 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 1:40 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:20 pm)
I hate this episode. ?It's another one of those episodes that show someone as being totally and completely wrong dispite being right the entire time. ?Trip did what any civilized person should have done, and Archer berated him for it simply because he was friends with the other captain. ?

If I didn't know any better, I'd have said this was a critique of Bush Sr/Clinton era relations with China - That we ignored the human rights violations in order to get in good with the premier. ?That's exactly what Archer reminded me of in this episode.

I can see that... Absolutely. ?ST does get political and you can see that analogy. As a conservative and ST fan, I'm pretty used to this political pitch from them. Regardless I still enjoyed the ending. Even if I didn't agree with Archer.

You should have agreed with Archer. This is not a human rights issue.

The girl was a sex slave. How is that not human (whatever species) rights issue?

"It" wasn't a "girl". Was not a "sex slave", but was a member of 3 percent of the population required for the species to procreate.

...and obviously emotionally unstable.

It didn't even get a name. just moved from couple to couple to help make thier lives better. I think that's a sex slave.
And I think that's pretty sick.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 2:36 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:32 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 2:00 pm)
Quote (whyaduck @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:49 pm)
A person died because of Trip's actions. A baby wouldn't be born because of Trip's actions. Plus, Archer knows how difficult it is to have to make these moral decisions for other species without clear guidance on what he can and can't do. This went far deeper than ?Archer just being friends with the other captain.

But those things came after. In my mind the captain should have thrown out the 'new technologies' and stood up for a moral imperative. Owning others is wrong.

I mean clearly when the Federation is founded, they support this. Look at all the mucking Kirk does in other cultures. Either way I disagree with someone claiming to hate the episode.

I loved it. What I hate are the mushy boring no thinking required episodes.

What "moral imperative"?

Kirk never faced this situation.

Are we to impose western human values on other alien cultures?

Kirk was always forcing his view on aliens. The first one that comes to mind is the species that had eliminated war by hosting war games and sacrificing their own people. Kirk blew up their machine and declared them wrong.

How many deaths do you think he added to their world? Was he right?

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 2:46 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:40 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 2:36 pm)
Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:32 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 2:00 pm)
Quote (whyaduck @ Dec. 02 2009, 10:49 pm)
A person died because of Trip's actions. A baby wouldn't be born because of Trip's actions. Plus, Archer knows how difficult it is to have to make these moral decisions for other species without clear guidance on what he can and can't do. This went far deeper than ?Archer just being friends with the other captain.

But those things came after. In my mind the captain should have thrown out the 'new technologies' and stood up for a moral imperative. Owning others is wrong.

I mean clearly when the Federation is founded, they support this. Look at all the mucking Kirk does in other cultures. Either way I disagree with someone claiming to hate the episode.

I loved it. What I hate are the mushy boring no thinking required episodes.

What "moral imperative"?

Kirk never faced this situation.

Are we to impose western human values on other alien cultures?

Kirk was always forcing his view on aliens. The first one that comes to mind is the species that had eliminated war by hosting war games and sacrificing their own people. Kirk blew up their machine and declared them wrong.

How many deaths do you think he added to their world? Was he right?

Not my point.

Kirl did not face this situation.

Agreed, but I think we can 'guess' his choice. I think I can.

As for the fish, you're right. I'd shoot it.  :laugh:  :laugh:

whyaduck

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3478

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 3:33 pm

Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 2:32 pm)
It didn't even get a name. just moved from couple to couple to help make thier lives better. I think that's a sex slave.
And I think that's pretty sick.

Kludge - You're basing your argument on human behavior/morals partly because "it" looks like a human female. Not only is "it" not a human, but it is not female (or male). We are never told how the cogenitor is actually used and whether the sex act even includes the cogenitor. You're assuming that "it" is forced to have sex. We don't know that. All we know is that a cogenitor is necessary for males and females on that planet to have children. Evidentally, based on dialog in the episodes, other planets have the same three sex kind of set up.

No denying that Trip trying to help it, led to its premature death.

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 3:44 pm

Quote (whyaduck @ Dec. 03 2009, 12:33 am)
Quote (kludge77 @ Dec. 03 2009, 2:32 pm)
It didn't even get a name. just moved from couple to couple to help make thier lives better. I think that's a sex slave.
And I think that's pretty sick.



No denying that Trip trying to help it, led to its premature death.

And I say that life as a slave is no life worth living. Trip did the right thing.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Dec. 03 2009, 3:45 pm

Quote (Yanks @ Dec. 03 2009, 12:09 am)
Great episode. I love Trek episodes that make you think.

agreed!

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