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Why is Wrath of Kham a BAD film?

HaventGotALife

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:22 am

The special effects are out-dated. That's about it. The acting is good, the writing is fantastic. There's a reason for everything.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:24 am

Mistakes and Errors

It is unclear exactly how Saavik can be both a Starfleet cadet and hold the rank of lieutenant, unless she was had already graduated from the Academy and was now attending command college.
 

The most publicized mistake of the movie is, of course, why Khan recognizes Chekov when the character wasn't introduced until the second season of the classic series. Several theorizes range from Chekov leading a security team to Engineering in "Space Seed" in a failed attempt to retake the Enterprise, to Walter Koenig's theory which claims that Chekov made Khan wait to use a restroom and depleted the stall's supply of toilet paper, at which point Khan exclaimed "I'll never forget your face!"
 
It is not explained exactly why Scotty brings Preston's charred body to the bridge following the battle with Khan. He may have lived had Scotty gone directly to sick-bay.
 
Kirstie Alley (Saavik) is visibly startled when William Shatner (Kirk) punches through the glass cover of the storage container aboard Regula I.
 
While Chekov is laying unconscious in the corridor adjacent to the Genesis cave prior to the landing party beaming up to the Enterprise, when the team materializes in the transporter room, Chekov has suddenly joined the group.
 
When the Reliant fires the torpedo at the Enterprise to prevent them from entering the Mutara Nebula, David is seen walking around Dr. McCoy's office, only to step off the turbolift onto the bridge mere moments later.
 
When the Enterprise jumps to warp to escape the detonation of the Genesis Device, the warp effect is different than in the scene where Sulu says "So much for the little training cruise." This is the result of the use of stock footage from "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" being used in the latter scene.

HaventGotALife

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:30 am

Quote (Vice_Adm_Baxter @ Dec. 01 2009, 12:24 pm)
?

The most publicized mistake of the movie is, of course, why Khan recognizes Chekov when the character wasn't introduced until the second season of the classic series. Several theorizes range from Chekov leading a security team to Engineering in "Space Seed" in a failed attempt to retake the Enterprise, to Walter Koenig's theory which claims that Chekov made Khan wait to use a restroom and depleted the stall's supply of toilet paper, at which point Khan exclaimed "I'll never forget your face!"


This I can get over.
Quote (Vice_Adm_Baxter @ Dec. 01 2009, 12:24 pm)
Kirstie Alley (Saavik) is visibly startled when William Shatner (Kirk) punches through the glass cover of the storage container aboard Regula I.


Saavik is half-Romulan.

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:32 am

I don't personally think that any of those 'mistakes' make it a bad film though Bax. I mean, you could probably find the same amount of mistakes in any Trek film...in fact, in any film at all.

For me personally, it's a fantastic film, but TMP just had that extra bit of sci-fi magic that was missing from TWOK, and that's why IMO, TWOK is not the best Trek film (but it's by no means the worst either).

SaturnsRings

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:42 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:32 am)
I don't personally think that any of those 'mistakes' make it a bad film though Bax. I mean, you could probably find the same amount of mistakes in any Trek film...in fact, in any film at all.

For me personally, it's a fantastic film, but TMP just had that extra bit of sci-fi magic that was missing from TWOK, and that's why IMO, TWOK is not the best Trek film (but it's by no means the worst either).

I think Bax is right about the mistakes they are there. The biggest problem I have is when Scotty brings his wounded nephew to the bridge.

But you're also right in that every Star Trek movie (heck, any movie) has flaws and mistakes in it.

I am such a fan of movies and Star Trek in particular that I am pretty forgiving of mistakes and while all Star Trek films do have them none are so fatal for me that it prevents me from enjoying them.

God_in_an_Alcove

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:53 am

Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:58 am

Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 01 2009, 5:54 pm)
I've always interpreted Scotty bringing Peter to the bridge as Scotty's desperation to save his nephew...

He wasn't slighting McCoy's genius as a Doctor, but Peter was dying...and who was the one man Scotty knew could cheat and maybe even beat death...?

Jim Kirk.

That's why he came to the bridge.

:logical:

Really? How on earth would Kirk be able to save him? He has no medical skills at all.

I've never liked the scene simply because it's emotionally manipulative without any real grounding (ie. we never really get to know Scotty's nephew, so to make sure that we're upset when he dies we have to see Scotty stumbling onto the bridge carrying him).

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 11:59 am

Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 01 2009, 5:53 pm)
Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

Because Saavik is also a woman ;)

:laugh:

God_in_an_Alcove

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:02 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:57 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:53 am)
Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

A Romulan is technically a Vulcan in physiology, but remember Romulans do not follow the Vulcan ways...the whole reason that the Romulans exist in the first place.

Romulans don't restrain their emotions.

Spock, on the other hand, still prided himself in living by the Vulcan way, despite his finally acknoledging his dual heritage in ST:TMP.

:logical:

Saavik speaks Vulcan and makes several very Vulcan-esque references to logic. It's obvious she's been raised Vulcan.

God_in_an_Alcove

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POSTS: 4538

Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:03 pm

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:59 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 01 2009, 5:53 pm)
Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

Because Saavik is also a woman ;)

:laugh:

Oh, snap!

:laugh:

God_in_an_Alcove

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POSTS: 4538

Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:10 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 9:07 am)
Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:58 am)
Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 01 2009, 5:54 pm)
I've always interpreted Scotty bringing Peter to the bridge as Scotty's desperation to save his nephew...

He wasn't slighting McCoy's genius as a Doctor, but Peter was dying...and who was the one man Scotty knew could cheat and maybe even beat death...?

Jim Kirk.

That's why he came to the bridge.

:logical:

Really? How on earth would Kirk be able to save him? He has no medical skills at all.

I've never liked the scene simply because it's emotionally manipulative without any real grounding (ie. we never really get to know Scotty's nephew, so to make sure that we're upset when he dies we have to see Scotty stumbling onto the bridge carrying him).

Again...Scotty was desperate. His nephew, his own blood was dying. It wasn't a question of Kirk having medical skills, it was simply Scotty's faith in Kirk.

Who always pulled the crew's fat out of the fire when it seemed death was the only way out?

Scotty, the miracle worker, was looking for someone else to pull a miracle...

:logical:

Yeah, up to that point Kirk had always saved them... if they were in the main cast.

God_in_an_Alcove

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Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:12 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 9:09 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 12:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:57 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:53 am)
Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

A Romulan is technically a Vulcan in physiology, but remember Romulans do not follow the Vulcan ways...the whole reason that the Romulans exist in the first place.

Romulans don't restrain their emotions.

Spock, on the other hand, still prided himself in living by the Vulcan way, despite his finally acknoledging his dual heritage in ST:TMP.

:logical:

Saavik speaks Vulcan and makes several very Vulcan-esque references to logic. It's obvious she's been raised Vulcan.

She also cusses and loses her temper, which mean her Romulan blood also holds sway over her as well.

:p

Fanon says the world Saavik was born on, Hellguard, was a Romulan colony...

:logical:

Still not canon.

:logical:

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:20 pm

Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 12:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:57 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:53 am)
Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

A Romulan is technically a Vulcan in physiology, but remember Romulans do not follow the Vulcan ways...the whole reason that the Romulans exist in the first place.

Romulans don't restrain their emotions.

Spock, on the other hand, still prided himself in living by the Vulcan way, despite his finally acknoledging his dual heritage in ST:TMP.

:logical:

Saavik speaks Vulcan and makes several very Vulcan-esque references to logic. It's obvious she's been raised Vulcan.

I always have to surpress a chuckle when they claim that an individual's behavior is an "error" becaue they "don't act like" other members of the race / species. You hear it a lot with Klingons, for example "I hated becuase he didn't ACT like a KLINGON."

What does that even MEAN?

There are 6 BILLION people on the planet Vulcan. It's an entire race of people, who surely have as diverse and varied a population and set of sub-cultures as that of the human race on Earth. Surely it stands to reason that there are variances in the dedication to and mastery of logic within a race of 6 billion people!! I hate when Trek fans stereotype the Trek races...completely losing sight of reality. In reality, this is supposed to be an entire race of individuals. They are not the Borg. They have the sentience and the free-will to chose their own paths.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:26 pm

I think, to the original question, that it depends on what you as an individual think makes a "BAD film."

If you look at the amount of questionable plotholes, inconsistencies, contrivances, and continuity errors in "Wrath of Khan," then it is a poor film. The movie is literally riddled with these types of issues.

However, if you look at the entertainment value of the film, then it is a boarderline classic. It has great thematic consistency, the character interplay is well written and acted, the production values were very good for the period the movie was made, and it is an exciting balance of suspense, action, humor, and science fiction ideas.

So, if you are a person who highly values technical accuracy, then it is easy to see "Wrath of Khan" as a bad film. If you are a person who values entertainment, then it is easly to see "Wrath of Khan" as a good film.

It is my favorite of all the Trek films, despite my admission to multiple major plotholes and leaps of illogic. I guess that shows me what I value...!

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Dec. 02 2009, 12:28 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 12:26 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 12:12 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 9:09 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 12:02 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:57 am)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Dec. 02 2009, 11:53 am)
Quote (HaventGotALife @ Dec. 02 2009, 8:30 am)
Saavik is half-Romulan.

Firstly, that's not canon, as it never made it into the film. Secondly, a half-Romulan half-Vulcan is basically still just a Vulcan. Thirdly, Spock is half-human, so why doesn't he get startled or cry at funerals or cuss when things go wrong?

A Romulan is technically a Vulcan in physiology, but remember Romulans do not follow the Vulcan ways...the whole reason that the Romulans exist in the first place.

Romulans don't restrain their emotions.

Spock, on the other hand, still prided himself in living by the Vulcan way, despite his finally acknoledging his dual heritage in ST:TMP.

:logical:

Saavik speaks Vulcan and makes several very Vulcan-esque references to logic. It's obvious she's been raised Vulcan.

She also cusses and loses her temper, which mean her Romulan blood also holds sway over her as well.

:p

Fanon says the world Saavik was born on, Hellguard, was a Romulan colony...

:logical:

Still not canon.

:logical:

But her behavior is...and it's visibly not 100% Vulcan.

:logical:

Which begs the question back to what I posted earlier...

What IS "100% Vulcan?"

I think if we really think about it, that is meaningless. It's like saying someone's behavior is not "100% human..." It means nothing when you consider the massive diversity that exists within an entire race of people, no matter how strong the binding philosophy of that race might be.

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