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Which Spock Birth Scene would be canon

Originaltrekisbest

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 244

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 10:47 pm

Ok, I know the consenus here is that deleted scenes are not cannon, but they are part of my personal cannon. I never understood why they are excluded. They are authorized by the studio since they are on the DVD. Anyway i find them to rarely contradict cannon anyway

But I think the spock birth scene might. In TFF sarek appeard to be disappointed by spocks birth, although this scene could have been syboks interpretation of spocks birth rather than spocks memory. Would spock have actually remembered his birth?

I dont think people can blame the alternate time line, spocks birth was probably before kirks anyway. even if it wasnt i hightly doubt that kirks fathers death would have caused spocks father to be more accepting since spocks birth was on vulcan and i doubt those events changed things that much.

what do you all think

31st_Century_Temporal_Age
nt

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POSTS: 845

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 11:19 pm

Actually the timeline wasn't changed until 2233 when Nero arrived so Spock's birth scene in 2230 must be the canon one.

Also TFF scene was showing Spock's pain and my belief is that it was the best way Spock could visualize it himself having just being born. So TFF was most likely Spock's interpretation.

Unless you are going to use First Contact's creation of a newer timeline that filters all the way through current Trek time.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 11:22 pm

Quote (Originaltrekisbest @ Nov. 30 2009, 10:47 pm)
Ok, I know the consenus here is that deleted scenes are not cannon, but they are part of my personal cannon. I never understood why they are excluded. They are authorized by the studio since they are on the DVD. Anyway i find them to rarely contradict cannon anyway

But I think the spock birth scene might. In TFF sarek appeard to be disappointed by spocks birth, although this scene could have been syboks interpretation of spocks birth rather than spocks memory. Would spock have actually remembered his birth?

I dont think people can blame the alternate time line, spocks birth was probably before kirks anyway. even if it wasnt i hightly doubt that kirks fathers death would have caused spocks father to be more accepting since spocks birth was on vulcan and i doubt those events changed things that much.

what do you all think

I think that the birth we saw in TFF was highly subjective.

It was either Syboks twisted recolections of the event, or what Spock always felt his birth would have been like.

I doubt it was factual.

Narada

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POSTS: 4010

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 11:34 pm

Quote (31st_Century_Temporal_Agent @ Nov. 30 2009, 11:19 pm)
Actually the timeline wasn't changed until 2233 when Nero arrived so Spock's birth scene in 2230 must be the canon one.

Also TFF scene was showing Spock's pain and my belief is that it was the best way Spock could visualize it himself having just being born. So TFF was most likely Spock's interpretation.

Unless you are going to use First Contact's creation of a newer timeline that filters all the way through current Trek time.

Yes but this is another topic. Someone can believe First Contact changes the time line but that does not mean what we see in all Trek is not this same time line after this change. Personally I cite the Novikov self-consistency principle as a main example for this scenario. In this way I view Star Trek in chronological order and not in production order.

ForTheWorldIsHollow

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POSTS: 135

Report this Dec. 01 2009, 10:16 am

I never believed Sybok's mind-controlling pain reliever to be lifted segments of time and just subjective investigations of the internal feelings and thoughts.  So the birth scene would be canon in my estimation.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Dec. 01 2009, 10:37 am

Canon is what is shown on screen. Period. "Personal canon" is just fine, but not in the black-and-white interpertation. Therefore, Spock's birth in XI is not canon, as it was not in the finished story. The birth in TFF is canon, as it appears in an officially licensed, final-cut Star Trek movie.

To that point, however, I believe that the birth shown in TFF was largely allegorical and was more of a representation of Spock's belief that he was (literally) "rejected at birth" rather than a direct and factual account of the event.

31st_Century_Temporal_Age
nt

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POSTS: 845

Report this Dec. 02 2009, 1:27 am

Quote (starbase63 @ Dec. 01 2009, 11:44 am)
Technically both can be canon...

Since what we saw in STV:TFF was a visual representation of Spock's fears, we have no way of knowing if that's what actually happened, since Spock's personal feelings of alienation from his father would have colored any interpretation of his birth.

And what we see in STXI takes place prior to the timeline split, so it could also be considered valid since what is seen in the unused footage would have happened in the prime timeline.

:logical:

Not to mention what happens when when a director's cut is released? They become canon. Just like all those deleted scenes in the other movies? I mean cmon did Cmdr Maddon not become the E's 1st officer. Is Wesley not back in starfleet? Don't get me started. Star Trek 2009's birth scene is how Spock was born. Glad we got to see it. My 2nd favorite deleted scene btw even though I still support that one being cut.

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