ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Seen ST XI for a third time.

Somniac

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 462

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 6:32 am

Having watched it again, I twigged the problem.
The very last scene where the crew assemble on the bridge in their recognisable uniforms would have made a perfect lead in to ST TOS. Presumably as it is meant to do.
The problem is, everything that comes before, doesn't.
It's as if an ending has been tagged on from a different film.
Suddenly they find their characters after rolling around looking for them for the previous 2 hours.
If the timeline has changed the characters, then why have this scene resemble the OS so closely?
It makes everything that has gone before seem even more incongruous.
It is a lack of continuity even within the film itself that ultimately lets it down.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 6:39 am

Quote (Somniac @ Nov. 30 2009, 6:32 am)
Having watched it again, I twigged the problem.
The very last scene where the crew assemble on the bridge in their recognisable uniforms would have made a perfect lead in to ST TOS. Presumably as it is meant to do.
The problem is, everything that comes before, doesn't.
It's as if an ending has been tagged on from a different film.
Suddenly they find their characters after rolling around looking for them for the previous 2 hours.
If the timeline has changed the characters, then why have this scene resemble the OS so closely?
It makes everything that has gone before seem even more incongruous.
It is a lack of continuity even within the film itself that ultimately lets it down.

I'm not sure I understand what your trying to get at.

The uniforms in the last scene are no different then the uniforms used threw out most of the film.

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4010

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 6:41 am

I can relate because the end sequence was not one of my favorite parts. You make some good observations and interpretations. At the same time though we can say these are the same people from the Original Series. Yes they are from an alternate reality but they still are the same people deep down. So in that way I am comfortable with the ending and feel it opens up for new adventures.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 8:12 am

I'm not really sure anything "went wrong:"

Highest-grossing movie (even with inflation adjustment) in the franchise

Best-reviewed movie in the franchise

Most successful "Star Trek" film with general audiences in almost 25 years

Most well-received by the fans "Star Trek" movie in almost 15 years

Most positive Trek-related buzz since the premier of TNG back in 1987



Could someone tell me what "went wrong" again? I seem to be missing it.

Captain_Storma

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11836

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 9:55 am

What went wrong, and totally spoiled that whole film, which would at least have been an entertaining Sci-Fi film (it has nothing of TREK to justify the name IMHO) is:

They made a kid in the 6th semester the captain of Starfleet's most advanced starship.

Just like that. For no specific reason.

STAR TREK has been far stretched at times, but that was just so over the top, it made the movie almost a (T)RAUMSCHIFF SURPRISE sequel for me:

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 10:12 am

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Nov. 30 2009, 9:55 am)
What went wrong, and totally spoiled that whole film, which would at least have been an entertaining Sci-Fi film (it has nothing of TREK to justify the name IMHO) is:

They made a kid in the 6th semester the captain of Starfleet's most advanced starship.

Just like that. For no specific reason.

STAR TREK has been far stretched at times, but that was just so over the top, it made the movie almost a (T)RAUMSCHIFF SURPRISE sequel for me:


Fortunately for the majority of us, minor issues like that don't seem to bother most of the fans, critics, and moviegoers in the world.

Much bigger issues usually exist in films that are not successful and/or do not reach their potential. Such issues existed in the TNG movies for example, like unrelatable characters, preachy heavy-handed storylines, and generally unentertaining plots.

So, it seems that what is appealing to YOU as an individual is not what most fans, moviegoers, and critics appreciate. In that way, I am eternally greatful we didn't get what you specifically wanted.

One man's opinion does not make a fact. Facts are elements I listed above. The facts indicate that this movie got the important things "right" in the eyes of the people who count.

Captain_Storma

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11836

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 10:16 am

You do not even know, what "I wanted".  :D

But I agree, when it comes to films I have a rather different taste than the majority. But I am cool with that.  :cool:

As about the "unrelatable characters"... I really do not know what you are talking about.

A sympathetic, diplomatic Captain is far more relatable than a teenage, angry boy who will beat up everyone in his way... well at least it should be the case in a modern society that you relate more with a person of peace than a person of violence.

Clownprince23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 102

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 10:20 am

Quote (Somniac @ Nov. 30 2009, 6:32 am)
Having watched it again, I twigged the problem.
The very last scene where the crew assemble on the bridge in their recognisable uniforms would have made a perfect lead in to ST TOS. Presumably as it is meant to do.
The problem is, everything that comes before, doesn't.
It's as if an ending has been tagged on from a different film.
Suddenly they find their characters after rolling around looking for them for the previous 2 hours.
If the timeline has changed the characters, then why have this scene resemble the OS so closely?
It makes everything that has gone before seem even more incongruous.
It is a lack of continuity even within the film itself that ultimately lets it down.

I knew there was a problem I just couldnt figure it out. So glad you came and informed me. If only you had revealed this earlier then we could have prevented so many people from enjoying the movie and stoppd all the good reviews it got.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 10:23 am

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Nov. 30 2009, 10:16 am)
You do not even know, what "I wanted". ?:D

But I agree, when it comes to films I have a rather different taste than the majority. But I am cool with that. ?:cool:

As about the "unrelatable characters"... I really do not know what you are talking about.

A sympathetic, diplomatic Captain is far more relatable than a teenage, angry boy who will beat up everyone in his way... well at least it should be the case in a modern society that you relate more with a person of peace than a person of violence.

What you "wanted" was another TNG movie or a TNG-clone movie.

As far as "relatable" characters, you're again projecting your OWN desires / tastes / wishes on to the rest of the population. The fact is that the stiff, automated, passionless characters of TNG stopped appealing to general audiences the way characters in other shows do. Like it or not, that's part of the reason TNG movies faded into (and below) mediocrity. Kirk was a flawed HUMAN character who went on a journey of improving himself. That is a positive and relatable story in just about any genre.

I'm glad that you recognize your tastes are different than the large majority of people. I hope you realize that this means that if the creative team made a movie to follow and conform to your wishes, there'd be you and a few 100 other people extremely happy...and the rest of the millions of fans, critics, and audiences would NOT be happy.

Based on your attitude over the last 10-12 months, however, all that matters to you is that you get what you want...so I'm sure it's a point lost on you.

Captain_Storma

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11836

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 10:32 am

Cool that you know what I wanted eventhough I myself am not sure what I wanted... you must have some "wrong" Betazoid genes in your pool ¿:eyesroll:

I just recently read "The Eugenics Wars" and thought what a terrific movie that would make. A movie showing World War 3 (with lots of catastrophic pictures for the SFX-needing audience).

My take on TREK XI would have been more of a completely new concept. Something like the Romulan Wars movie that was in planning stages and really looked promissing.

Or a political movie like "Articles of the Federation" or "A Singular Destiny" which would be more of a thriller than an action film.
A concept that would finally USE the scale of a cinematic production, maybe even a trilogy.

Yeah, I know... not fit for mass market, but IMHO suiting better what TREK is about: A socio-ethical mirror for our society.

God_in_an_Alcove

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4538

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 11:09 am

Quote (Somniac @ Nov. 30 2009, 3:32 am)
If the timeline has changed the characters, then why have this scene resemble the OS so closely?

It doesn't change the characters. It changes the events that some of them go through.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 1:33 pm

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Nov. 30 2009, 10:32 am)
Cool that you know what I wanted eventhough I myself am not sure what I wanted... you must have some Betazoid genes in your pool ?:eyesroll:

I just recently read "The Eugenics Wars" and thought what a terrific movie that would make. A movie showing World War 3 (with lots of catastrophic pictures for the SFX-needing audience).

My take on TREK XI would have been more of a completely new concept. Something like the Romulan Wars movie that was in planning stages and really looked promissing.

Or a political movie like "Articles of the Federation" or "A Singular Destiny" which would be more of a thriller than an action film.
A concept that would finally USE the scale of a cinematic production, maybe even a trilogy.

Yeah, I know... not fit for mass market, but IMHO suiting better what TREK is about: A socio-ethical mirror for our society.

Well, based on that...I again think it's clear that it's a good thing that you didn't get what you were looking for.

Are your ideas interesting? Perhaps. Are they interesting to general movie-going audiences and 60-70% of the general fanbase? No.

What you're describing wouldn't even get made as a movie-of-the-week or an animated feature. There's just not enough interest.

Being a "socio-ethical mirror for our society" is one of many, MANY dimensions that make up "Star Trek." If that is the only one that interests you, then I pity you as you are turning yourself off of too many other possibilities. "Star Trek" is a great many things. That is but one of perhaps 7-10 elements. ?

I guess the big question I have for you Storma is this: Knowing FULL well that your tastes are different than others and knowing FULL well that this means that the type of projects you'd enjoy would be very unlikely to achieve widespread success...why do you have to resist what IS out there and enjoying success? Why do you have to $h!t all over it? There's lots of people who DO enjoy it. Just because you don't, you're going to endlessly (and selfishly) crusade against it? In hopes of what? Achieving what YOU want?? That makes no logical sense! You've already admitted (and I wholeheartedly agree) that your tastes are specific to you and rarely reflect the desires of a broader audience!!

So...accepting all this as truth...what in the name of all that's holy are you trying to accomplish?

I haven't been able to figure it out with you. Your disposition is sometimes thoughful and noble, but...ultimately...when you boil it down, you're really just reducing yourself to bitter complaints.

What gives? Does it ever get old?

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 1:56 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Nov. 30 2009, 1:48 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Nov. 30 2009, 11:09 am)
Quote (Somniac @ Nov. 30 2009, 3:32 am)
If the timeline has changed the characters, then why have this scene resemble the OS so closely?

It doesn't change the characters. It changes the events that some of them go through.

It kind of did change the characters, at least some of them. The different events in their past leads to a different character.

Nu-Kirk has a very different upbringing from prime-Kirk.

Sarek of the new timeline is more openly supportive of Spock than Sarek of the prime timeline.

Chekov is actively serving on the Enterprise five years earlier than he would be in the prime timeline.

:logical:

I'd say that Sarek's change of attitude was probably more a result of the unimaginable and immediate circumstances he and Spock went through as a result of Nero's genocide than anything else.

It's amazing how quickly petty stubborness melts away under extreme circumstances.

Captain_Storma

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11836

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 2:52 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Nov. 30 2009, 10:33 pm)
Quote (Captain_Storma @ Nov. 30 2009, 10:32 am)
Cool that you know what I wanted eventhough I myself am not sure what I wanted... you must have some Betazoid genes in your pool ?:eyesroll:

I just recently read "The Eugenics Wars" and thought what a terrific movie that would make. A movie showing World War 3 (with lots of catastrophic pictures for the SFX-needing audience).

My take on TREK XI would have been more of a completely new concept. Something like the Romulan Wars movie that was in planning stages and really looked promissing.

Or a political movie like "Articles of the Federation" or "A Singular Destiny" which would be more of a thriller than an action film.
A concept that would finally USE the scale of a cinematic production, maybe even a trilogy.

Yeah, I know... not fit for mass market, but IMHO suiting better what TREK is about: A socio-ethical mirror for our society.

Well, based on that...I again think it's clear that it's a good thing that you didn't get what you were looking for.

Are your ideas interesting? Perhaps. Are they interesting to general movie-going audiences and 60-70% of the general fanbase? No.

What you're describing wouldn't even get made as a movie-of-the-week or an animated feature. There's just not enough interest.

Being a "socio-ethical mirror for our society" is one of many, MANY dimensions that make up "Star Trek." If that is the only one that interests you, then I pity you as you are turning yourself off of too many other possibilities. "Star Trek" is a great many things. That is but one of perhaps 7-10 elements. ?

I guess the big question I have for you Storma is this: Knowing FULL well that your tastes are different than others and knowing FULL well that this means that the type of projects you'd enjoy would be very unlikely to achieve widespread success...why do you have to resist what IS out there and enjoying success? Why do you have to $h!t all over it? There's lots of people who DO enjoy it. Just because you don't, you're going to endlessly (and selfishly) crusade against it? In hopes of what? Achieving what YOU want?? That makes no logical sense! You've already admitted (and I wholeheartedly agree) that your tastes are specific to you and rarely reflect the desires of a broader audience!!

So...accepting all this as truth...what in the name of all that's holy are you trying to accomplish?

I haven't been able to figure it out with you. Your disposition is sometimes thoughful and noble, but...ultimately...when you boil it down, you're really just reducing yourself to bitter complaints.

What gives? Does it ever get old?

I always enjoy reading your relies... at times they are really well thought trough, at times they just make me smile.

Look, I am on no crusade at all. I made my peace with that film. This does not mean that I will not state my opinion when it comes to this film. And that's it. I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong, because you are not wrong at all.

All I am doing here is to discuss this film, all the other films and shows with other TREK fans who all have different points of view towards things.

If you allow me, I would really like to continue...  ;)

God_in_an_Alcove

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4538

Report this Nov. 30 2009, 2:56 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Nov. 30 2009, 11:01 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ Nov. 30 2009, 1:56 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Nov. 30 2009, 1:48 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Nov. 30 2009, 11:09 am)
Quote (Somniac @ Nov. 30 2009, 3:32 am)
If the timeline has changed the characters, then why have this scene resemble the OS so closely?

It doesn't change the characters. It changes the events that some of them go through.

It kind of did change the characters, at least some of them. The different events in their past leads to a different character.

Nu-Kirk has a very different upbringing from prime-Kirk.

Sarek of the new timeline is more openly supportive of Spock than Sarek of the prime timeline.

Chekov is actively serving on the Enterprise five years earlier than he would be in the prime timeline.

:logical:

I'd say that Sarek's change of attitude was probably more a result of the unimaginable and immediate circumstances he and Spock went through as a result of Nero's genocide than anything else.

It's amazing how quickly petty stubborness melts away under extreme circumstances.

Look at the earlier scenes as well.

Nu-Sarek isn't quite the hard-butt Sarek Prime was.

He even looks embarrassed when Spock looks at him after the Councilor makes the insult about Amanda.

For some reason in the new timeline, Sarek is a bit more understanding of his son.

:logical:

IIRC, it was Spock's joining Starfleet that caused them to grow distant in the first place. So it's no surprise to see Sarek trying to be supportive of Spock before then.

As for your other examples of Kirk and Checkov, that's just in line with what I said. Well, with Kirk, anyway. He's still the same person, and, despite being raised in a different environment, there are still personality traits that are distinctly Kirk. As for Checkov, I'm not sure what to make of him.

Recently logged in

Users browsing this forum: darmokattanagra

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum