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Dominion or Borg?

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Nov. 27 2009, 5:12 am

Quote (Edgeways @ Nov. 26 2009, 5:20 pm)
Quote (Vold @ Nov. 26 2009, 1:03 am)
Quote (Edgeways @ Nov. 25 2009, 11:52 pm)
Quote (Vold @ Nov. 25 2009, 2:45 pm)
Quote (subytrek @ Nov. 25 2009, 4:32 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Nov. 25 2009, 1:29 pm)
The Borg was able to do heavy damage to a fleet of 60 Federation starships, some of them among the most advanced classes in the fleet.
The Dominion could outnumber allied forces (Feds, Klingons, Romulans) 2 to 1 and still lose.

Do the math.

But, the Dominion destroyed hundreds of starships from combined fleets from Starfleet and the Klingons and later on the Romulans. The only reason the Dominion lost was because the wormhole was closed to them denying them reinforcements. And they still almost won the war anyway. Odo having the cure to the virus from Section 31 and the Cardassians turning on them at the last minute sealed their fate.

That saying, the only reason the Dominion achieve as such is because they did not do it alone. They had allies, be it temporary or loyal.

By themselves and had the Borg not interfeared (destroying possibly hundreds) in ST:FC, hence weakening Starfleet for the Dominion. Had no one join or stayed back from the fight, the Dominion won't pose much of a threat alone against the AQ.

So the Dominion didn't pose as much of a threat because they didn't do it alone? ?Since when did the Borg do anything individually? ?They're a collective! ?They assimilate crews, ships, worlds, &c.

You could also argue that the Borg invasion strengthened Starfleet, and prepared them for the Dominion invasion (The Defiant).

Alone as in, their own forces.
The Collective is their force, they don't have allies.

only the 1st Borg encunter has strengthen Starfleet, the 2nd one just weaken them in a thight spot with another race.

Back to the Dominion, they only seem unbeatable because DS9 will be destroyed had they got their way. Losing the main characters is considered a failure.

But in the long run, the Doms (without getting allies) will lose against the AQ. Even with their thousands of ships, which majority of them are small ships, not Battleships.

We hardly see more than 1 BB in a battlefield, only when guarding the HQ or something like in the last ep, where they rally all their ships.

The Borg on the other hand, their majority are Cubes. We've seen 15 to 40 in a single sector before. I wonder how they decide on what ships to build. :)

I think the difference between new clones and "allies" to the Borg is negligible. If it were the Borg invading through the wormhole, they would have tried to assimilate the Cardassians and Breen--not "join forces". ¿And if they had, they would all be considered Borg, and not a Borg/Cardassian/Breen alliance. ¿And as far as the Dominion were concerned, Cardassian and Breen were part of the Dominion (as Bajor once was). ¿Therefore Cardassians and Breen could be considered part of the single Dominion. ¿As the Borg have many different parts as well.

The difference would only be numbers.

The Dominion
When they join forces, they enlist Cardassian technology & tactics.

The Borg
When they assimilate others, they still stick to Borg technology & tactics.

Hence they don't have special aid, just to keep their population count up.

Well this is the case with current primitive species only, not new more advance species.
Cardassian, Klingon, Romulan & the Federation have nothing new to offer.
:)

In addition, the Borg even though they got new tactics, that doesn't mean they'll use them. Like all Drones got range weapons but don't bother using them. So in the end, there's no new feature, well in the short run anyway. If the war is prolonged,
Borg protocol dictates that they utilise uncommon tactics.
:)

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Nov. 27 2009, 6:40 am

Quote (TheDriver @ Nov. 26 2009, 7:16 pm)
Look, GiaA...

When you pull my paragraph apart like that? Of course it's not going to make sense. So let's put it this way (using an example I've already given):

- A great white shark kills 60 people.
- 3000 killer ants kill roughly 600 people.

So who's the greater threat? The shark or the ants?

Who cares if one Borg cube can take out 60 ships? And who cares if one Jem'Hadar vessel can take out 0.5 Starflleet ships (in your estimation)? The fact of the matter is the Dominion possessed MANY MORE ships than the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Alliance.

So if you have to make a determination? Again, going with the numbers, you'd be forced to admit the "ants" were the bigger problem because more people were killed. Not to mention the fact those "ants" spread across a much greater area.

So yes, your "math" (playing only a few of the numbers) and "hypothetical situation" (downplaying the strength of numbers for the Dominion) was a tad screwy.

And those hypothetical situations you pulled from me? Were in response to hypothetical scenarios from others, namely the ideas that the virus alone would have won the day for the Alliance and the Dominion would not have beaten the Alliance even with the Cardassian forces intact. I, myself, have never offered a hypothetical situation in order to arrive at the conclusion that the Dominion was indeed a greater threat to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants than the Borg.

Finally, onto the Dominion vessels...

In "Treachery...?" Without Weyoun's assistance, that Runabout would never have been able to defeat the Jem'Hadar attack ship. And that's not a hypothetical statement as Odo says as much in the episode. I also think it's safe to assume the other Weyoun clone dealt with those "weak points" after that incident.

And to say a few "beetle" ships got pwned by the Defiant? Well, what do you expect? The Defiant is a freaking Starfleet battleship disguised as an escort vessel! But hey, how about those two Miranda-class ships in maneuvers with the Defiant during that initial attack? Or the Excelsior and Akira-class vessels with flaming saucer sections?

You're right in saying it's a bit strange that the Jem'Hadar attack ship would kamikaze a B'rel or K'vort-class vessel. But considering we mainly see the "beetles" ramming Vor'cha and Galaxy-class ships? One could probably make the safe assumption that particular attack craft was already damaged.

Plus, those Jem'Hadar were shown to be fairly crazy (with bloodlust). Even at the expense of their own lives.

Numbers
In terms of numbers, than its the Borg who has the advantage.

Remember, the Borg are not great whites (Big & few)
They are, ... well Giant Ants :D
(Big & Plenty)

logically, the Borg have more ships than the Dominion. Why?
1. The Borg have no loyalty problem and all Drones are equally perfected. Hence all new Drones are ready & willing to serve onboard ships.

The Dominion on the other hand have to control their Jem'Hadars with Ketrecel White. A very limited source of product. They can't fuel enough white for millions of vessels, only hundred of thousands at best.

2. The Borg are known to create mass out of nothing (figuratively)
Assimilated vessels can grow without heading back to a shipyard. Demonstrating their productive capability not limited to what basic resources at hand and based on that, it shows they can build ships at a fast pace, without the need of large number of workers.

The Dominion like other regular races are limited in many ways in ship production, most importantly they need a shipyard. Not out of recommendation, but out of necessity.

3. The Borg have a large resource pulled out of the very core of assimilated planets at their disposal.

The Dominion harvesting method may be better than the Federation but I doubt its anywhere like the Borg's because they don't have slaves that don't complain & don't need lots of rest.

4. All that are assimilated by the Borg, are pulled to their full potential right away.

The Dominion slave planets, are all still living their civilian lives. Fighting each other, deceiving one another in business trades & all. Wasting resources on drugs, weapons, clothing, etc.

So comparing between the slave drivers & progress driven swarms. The Borg have a significant lead in their fleet production.

Powerful ships
Quantity
- Now, not only are the Dominion limited to the number of ships they can control with their also limited source of Ketrecel White.

The Dominion don't trust their own forces with too many big ships. Hence they limit their number of Battleships being created & leading the fleets.

What is the most we've seen in a battlefield? 2? 3? 4?

- The Borg, with no loyalty problem or training, all Drones are capable of commanding a Cube. Even 6 Neonatal Drones is capable to utilise a Cube's minimum potential. A Cube is their standard vessel, it is the Dominion's equivalant of Heavy Cruisers in number and Battleship in Strength.

What is the most we've seen in a battlefield?
3-15 were seen traveling together
Dozens of Cubes, Spheres & at least a Diamond is around a Uni-Complex.
47 were seen in a single sector before
Hundreds were known to invade a territory.

What more, in every Cube is a Sphere (600m), the Dominion equivalant of Heavy Cruisers in number & Strength.

Durability & Weapon Arc
Numbers alone isn't good if they fall like flies.

Borg vessels are very durable & repairs on the spot. Dominion ships are more durable than most primitive species but are still able to be brought down by those other primitive species.

Beetles can be toast by a single beam of a Galaxy Class, a simple task for Borg disruptor beams. Plus a Cube have more beams than a Galaxy Class & is capable of spinning fast for every arc to fire at a single direction.
They also got torpedoes with good accuracy and tractor beams for any who came too close.

Heavy Cruisers will take more pounding, but once their shields are down, they are at the mercy of Borg cutting beams like any other species.

Battleships Even more durable & they use torpedoes more, that's good against the Borg's adaptive shielding.

But like all primitive species, they limit their primary salvos to the forward arc.
If the Borg vessel is any where else, they are vulnerable until they can face their target.

TheDriver

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Report this Nov. 27 2009, 2:03 pm

I still believe the majority of you Borg fans have no idea what this thread was about.

However, if you want to turn it into "who could potentially be a more powerful enemy" thread? Based entirely on "the Borg wins every time" (ha), please feel free to do so.

And GinaA? I'm tired of debating with you. You're warping the facts by pulling bits and pieces from my posts and ignoring the big picture. So if you want to contend the "shark" is more powerful than the "ants?" And declare canon where none exists? And tell me I'm, in actuality, a bullshit artist? And that the virus was the ONLY reason the Dominion lost the war? And that the Dominion vessels were inferior to those in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? Ironically, just cherry-picking your way through both the series and my posts?

Well, please be my guest.

In the end, neither one of us is likely to change his mind.

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Nov. 27 2009, 2:24 pm

I understand what the thread is about, just pointing out some basic general knowledge about the Dom & Borg tactical capability.

As some, have over exaggerated assumptions 1 way or the other.
:)

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Nov. 27 2009, 3:07 pm

Quote (TheDriver @ Nov. 25 2009, 6:04 pm)
The subject line clearly asks "Who posed (past tense) the greater threat?" And the Dominion did indeed pose the greater threat.

It also clearly did not state, a threat to "Who"

Every episodes of Voy are "past events" too.
Showing destruction towards many species everywhere they've been.

Assimilating trillions of individuals from various species alltogether

2 known species have now become extinct or an endangered species (99% assimilated)
Species 116
Species 10,026

Colonies assimilated, past worlds shown to be populated by Borg.

These are all "Past Events"
:)

Throughout the same time, all the Dominion has done is attack 1 place, against 3 enemies & lost in the end. No victories.
Not unless you count the people who surrendered without a fight.
:D

God_in_an_Alcove

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Report this Nov. 27 2009, 3:11 pm

He's just mad because I countered many of his claims with actual facts from the show. :laugh:

I've seen it happen plenty of times. Someone makes a claim. Someone else disputes that claim with canon information. The first someone says "Screw you, I'm taking my ball and going home."

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Edgeways

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Report this Nov. 27 2009, 6:04 pm

I can understand both perspectives.  Realisticly, there is no way of knowing who ultimately posed the greater threat.  Both sides could have untold resources that have never been shown on screen.  Both have existed in their quadrants for millennia, and therefore could have worlds and fleets and powers at their command that are indescribable.

And in the end, who cares?  It's like asking who's dad is better in fight.  It really doesn't matter.

What really matters is what they represented.  And how effective those representations were.

TheDriver

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Report this Nov. 28 2009, 8:06 pm

Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Nov. 27 2009, 6:11 pm)
He's just mad because I countered many of his claims with actual facts from the show. :laugh:

I've seen it happen plenty of times. Someone makes a claim. Someone else disputes that claim with canon information. The first someone says "Screw you, I'm taking my ball and going home."

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Or maybe I'm just too busy to tackle each and every point you attempt to make? Honestly? My entire stance can be pulled from my very first post on this thread.

And GiaA, your "facts" were more akin to "anomalies" in many cases. Or you'd just pick out the "facts" you wanted, leaving others on the vine. In the end, I steered clear of "claims" or hypothetical situations. You did not. You based all of your arguments on those very same hypothetical scenarios. I did not.

The fact is it takes WAY too long to address each and every little piece of my posts you pulled apart. Instead of just writing a response, you've wanted to attack piecemeal, losing all sense of context.

Plus, I'm currently wrapping up my first semester as a PhD student. So I have three projects I'm working on right now. (Yeah, I didn't head home for the Thansgiving break.) This site has provided me with brief minutes of entertainment value - pop on, type a post or two, pop off. But responding to you, my friend? Was becoming more of an annoyance and time-waster than anything else.

I'm not saying some of your arguments don't have merit. But by playing your weird game of "look how right I am" and "look how wrong you are" by cherry-picking info left and right? And generally coming across as an arrogant jerkoff?

Well, that's not my ballgame, bud.

So no, I'm not taking my ball and heading home. I'm just taking my ball to other courts.

Later.

TheDriver

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Nov. 28 2009, 8:30 pm

Oh, and I also want to apologize for calling you "Dog in an Attic" earlier. You were right. That was childish.

My reasons for doing so? I just found it annoying that someone with a Borg handle and Borg avatar was attempting to engage in a sensible "Borg or Dominion" discussion ... and then, of course, failing to be objective. (IMO.)

Nevertheless, I should have refrained from senseless name-calling.

God_in_an_Alcove

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Report this Nov. 28 2009, 9:53 pm

Quote (TheDriver @ Nov. 28 2009, 5:06 pm)
Quote (God_in_an_Alcove @ Nov. 27 2009, 6:11 pm)
He's just mad because I countered many of his claims with actual facts from the show. :laugh:

I've seen it happen plenty of times. Someone makes a claim. Someone else disputes that claim with canon information. The first someone says "Screw you, I'm taking my ball and going home."

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Or maybe I'm just too busy to tackle each and every point you attempt to make? Honestly? My entire stance can be pulled from my very first post on this thread.

It doesn't take all that long, really. And you've obviously had the time to maintain a debate for several days, now.

Quote
Or you'd just pick out the "facts" you wanted, leaving others on the vine.


If you used every single fact available, it would take a very long time to address every issue.

Quote
The fact is it takes WAY too long to address each and every little piece of my posts you pulled apart. Instead of just writing a response, you've wanted to attack piecemeal, losing all sense of context.


Even if I responded in bulk, rather than point-by-point, I'd still be saying all the same things. As I've already said, whether we respond in bulk or to each individual point, it's nothing more than personal preference. It bears no impact on the debate itself.

Quote
I'm not saying some of your arguments don't have merit. But by playing your weird game of "look how right I am" and "look how wrong you are" by cherry-picking info left and right? And generally coming across as an arrogant jerkoff?

Well, that's not my ballgame, bud.


So don't play ball. It's as easy as that.

Oh, and accusing me of cherry-picking after I've already accused you of doing just that? Yeah, it just doesn't work.

Quote
Oh, and I also want to apologize for calling you "Dog in an Attic" earlier. You were right. That was childish.


Apology accepted.

Quote
Nevertheless, I should have refrained from senseless name-calling.


Don't worry about. As I'm sure you may be aware, it's quite common-place around here.

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