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The Romance Thread

honeybee1111

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POSTS: 880

Report this Nov. 07 2009, 8:04 am

So, we have a thread going about sexuality but that mostly focuses on the lack of alternate sexuality.

I figure its time to have a general romance thread - whether ongoing or in individual episodes. For a show that showed so much skin and tried to sex up the franchise, there was precious little actual romance on the show.

Possible areas for discussion:

I'm glad to see the TnT romance continuing in the books. Agree, disagree? And why the hell did B&B derail the romance that the show built up for two years in :the abomination:?

Were they ever hinting at a Malcolm/Hoshi pairing? I know some people see that - but I never really saw it.

It's a shame they never continued with the Cutler/Phlox flirtation before Kellie Waymire passed away (RIP).

Archer/Hernandez. Did it work for you?

BrotherofShran01

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 9:30 am

I liked the idea of Archer and Hernandez becoming involved. I believed that they could have remained professional enough to do their duty and still have a real romantic relationship. Erika seem to really like Archer and cared for his well being after the Xindi incident. I think that Archer would have benefited a lot from having Erika as his woman.



Dbear1

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 9:45 am

Well I will try this, even though I am a guy that is not a big shipper usually.

As for TnT I agree that I liked the fact they carried them on in the books, it was made up with two really interesting characters and their relationship was volatile but it was also clear that they had very strong feelings for each other.  As for why B&B threw it out the window in the Abomination, I have no clue; it is one of the many faults with that piece of crap.  Especially when you consider what we saw at the end of Terra Prime, which was a very dramatic and touching scene, I am a pretty cynical guy and that scene still made me go wow!

Malcom and Hoshi pairing was never really shown on the shows, but there was a hint of it in some of the deleted scenes.  It might have been interesting due to the fact that there personalities were so different.  I have seen some other thoughts on a Hoshi/Travis paring, I do not think that would have been really interesting since Travis was mind numbing boring as a character.

For me for a romance to work on TV it has to develop over time, and it has to be between two interesting characters.  Really the only romances in ST that I ever felt anything about besides boredom or annoyance was TnT and Torres/Paris, the rest I could of done without.

Hopefully this does not make me sound like a gushing 12 year old girl, would totally ruin my reputation.
;)

honeybee1111

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 12:00 pm

Don't worry, Dbear1. You don't sound like a 12 year old girl.

And you are right - Manny Coto built up the TnT relationship for a a year and a half - I'm pretty sure he started on the show with Similitude - and Terra Prime was a really touching episode. I don't necessarily like everything he did, but I do think the Similitude is the single most romantic episode of Trek - with the possible exception of the Kirk/Edith episode of TOS - and has the whole wonderful scifi cloning story that makes it really original and mind-twisting. Its a great romantic episode and great scifi. And then, Terra Prime is really powerful. Compare that to the false drama of "the abomination" and it's like comparing heavy cream to powdered milk.

grigori

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 12:12 pm

Quote (Dbear1 @ Nov. 07 2009, 9:45 am)
For me for a romance to work on TV it has to develop over time, and it has to be between two interesting characters. ¿Really the only romances in ST that I ever felt anything about besides boredom or annoyance was TnT and Torres/Paris, the rest I could of done without.

Hopefully this does not make me sound like a gushing 12 year old girl, would totally ruin my reputation.
;)

ditto.

I don't usually have much interest in romance and this is why: most times you're expected to go weak at the knees just cause 2 attractive people are thrown together and start panting (well--I guess that IS enough for some sad people...)

You have to start with 2 strong characters to begin with, in order for the relationship to be of any interest: you have to know what THESE TWO in particular see in each other. Well--most shows can't even get the strong character part off the ground, much less achieve something worthwhile (a la The Abyss--they had a past and the particulars of the attraction were apparent). And as Dbear said, it takes time to set up.

Erika would have benefitted from having Archer as her MAN. Here was another pairing that managed successfully to pack a lot of punch: a past, real people, tangible reasons for them to have been drawn together. It took up only about, what? 10 seconds of screen time--yet it managed to carve itself indelibly into our perceptions of Archer and his make-up. That should be a lesson to all writers!

honeybee1111

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 12:20 pm

I actually thought that the small number of Archer/Hernandez interactions in the new book had lots of chemistry and sparkle - and I wanted more than Martin gave. But you are right, they did have a great deal of chemistry as well as a plausible reason to be together.

Narada

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 1:46 pm

I did not yet read the new books but I like this talk about the Archer and Hernandez relationship. Erika Hernandez is a great character along with many others from Enterprise. She is very meaningful for me in many ways. The few times she was on the show it makes a big impact for me and I love their interaction in the episode "Home." She is very encouraging for Archer and such a strong and domineering woman. She is also important for me because it shows females can be a Captain during the early years of Starfleet. This is something I did not like about the final episode with the Original Series because they said this was not allowed for Starfleet. For this reason I do not like this episode because it undoes all the progress made during the series.

It was not clear if Archer would find as much romance as Captain Kirk in the beginning but I am happy they did not focus with this. Captain Kirk already claims this title and I am glad they went another direction with Archer. For him he did not find as much romance except for a few times.

whyaduck

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 9:25 pm

When I first started watching Enterprise, I didn't like T'Pol. When I started to warm up to her, I hoped she and Archer would get together romantically, but then I realized that the deep relationship of friendship, trust, and respect (and possibly love) that was building between them was much better and more powerful than a romantic love would have been.

He never was in a situation with a woman that seemed a good match for him until Home. Erika and Archer definitely had chemistry and history. The history was understandable and believable. Two strong, focused, driven, mature, intelligent individuals who were attracted to each but couldn't take it any further because of career issues (both wanted to be starship captains and he was her superior in rank). When they meet again in Home, she is his equal in all important ways including rank. She obviously still has feelings for him and he for her, but he is going through a difficult emotional and psychological period after the Xindi situation. He is questioning his basic moral underpinnings and what he has been forced to become and he is depressed. I think on that mountain she realizes how deeply he is affected by what he's been through and I do believe that if there is one person who can help him through it, it's Erika. The main problem, though, is as long as they're both starship captains, it can never really progress much further than that night on the mountain.

(At one point before the Xindi arc finished, SB made the following comment in an interview: "Doesn't look like Captain Archer will ever get laid in space. And I'm okay with that, I just plan on taking it out on the Xindi.")
:laugh:

honeybee1111

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 9:44 pm

I think it's a really important line when he says that she's the person he was three years earlier. He sees who he was in her, and she sees what she could become in him. Again, we were never treated to very much of them onscreen, but what was there worked very well. She's a great character, and it is no accident that she has played a prominent role in the books.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 9:44 pm

Well hey atleast we aren't talking about bro-mances again.....yuck.  

Could a Captain really have a serious relationship, in every star trek series it didn't work out.  I think being a starfleet Captain means that you just don't get to stoip working, and you pretty much become alone your entire life.  

Kirk ended up alone, so did Picard, Sisko lost his chance of a relationship by "for the most part" dying.  It is reasonable to assume that Janeway will also end up alone.  And with Archer I always thought it was hard to say.  He became a diplomat, maybe he'll get to settle down with someone, but it is pretty much unknown.

whyaduck

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 9:52 pm

Starship captains are married to their ships, as someone in at least one of the ST shows states. Was it TOS? Don't remember.

BrotherofShran01

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 10:54 pm

Quote (whyaduck @ Nov. 07 2009, 9:52 pm)
Starship captains are married to their ships, as someone in at least one of the ST shows states. Was it TOS? Don't remember.

Yes, Harry Mudd said that to Eve in the TOS episode "Mudd's Women"

EVE: You'll never find them, Harry, and if you do find them you know what they are. A cheat. If you care for someone, really care
MUDD: (ransacking drawers frantically) For whom, Evie? For Kirk? You'll find out that Ship's captains are already married, girl, to their vessels. You'd find out the first time you came between him and the ship. You'll see.

lostshaker

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Report this Nov. 07 2009, 11:21 pm

Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Nov. 07 2009, 9:44 pm)
Well hey atleast we aren't talking about bro-mances again.....yuck. ¿

Could a Captain really have a serious relationship, in every star trek series it didn't work out. ¿I think being a starfleet Captain means that you just don't get to stoip working, and you pretty much become alone your entire life. ¿

Kirk ended up alone, so did Picard, Sisko lost his chance of a relationship by "for the most part" dying. ¿It is reasonable to assume that Janeway will also end up alone. ¿And with Archer I always thought it was hard to say. ¿He became a diplomat, maybe he'll get to settle down with someone, but it is pretty much unknown.

I think Captain Riker has a serious chance with Troi - actually I don't think they'll ever break up, because they're meant to be together. I never really thought Sisko died, just became noncorporeal with the option to become corporeal again. As I recalled they left it open for him to come back today, tomorrow, or even yesterday (not that I really liked the ending they gave him). It's a coin toss with Janeway since she became an Admiral. This was a promotion I didn't really care for as I'm skeptical of anyone's sanity who gives up their starship for an office. I take a page out of Kirk and Picard's book on this issue, but I guess not everyone is afforded the Enterprise. But I wouldn't turn down VGR, especially after she gets an upgraded refit, and even more especially after that ship made it 70,000 light years. It got a lot of mileage.

As for Archer... I have to completely agree with your assessment, RedShirt. Outside of Erika, I can't see him with anyone in Starfleet. But I also can't see him as the Federation President without having someone close. I don't think he necessarily needs to be married, but he'd need someone who would force him to relax.

Dbear1, even though I liked Riker & Troi, Torres/Paris & Trip/T'Pol were the best romances and the ones I cared about most too.

honeybee1111

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Report this Nov. 08 2009, 7:36 am

Torres & Paris made sense especially because of the nature of Voyager - people were going to start pairing off on the ship, given their situation. It made sense that two of the crew would fall in love, marry and have a child on the journey home. And both of them were people with troubled pasts and identity issues, though those issues were different for each of them. It worked.

Trip & T'Pol were kind of like Psyche & Eros of greek mythology. Archer needed a voice of reason in T'Pol and he a voice of passion from Trip - then he could make his decisions. It was cool that reason and passion eventually hooked up, because there was natural tension there.

As for Starship captains, Trek really embraced the idea that Captains had to be married to their ships. Although, I'm not sure this would be true in real life. My guess is in the real world the captain would do best to have a stable relationship with spouse onboard that wasn't directly under their command on a daily basis. Say, someone on one of the science teams, a MACO or even a doctor.  Having a captain chase romance while captaining would probably not work so well in the real world, thought it makes for good drama.

I know many people love the Troi/Riker romance - but I never liked the way he chased tail around the galaxy and then got the girl who was waiting for him back on the ship at the end. But then, I always thought Troi was a bit of a sap, anyway.

sonofspock1

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Report this Nov. 08 2009, 8:59 am

Quote (whyaduck @ Nov. 08 2009, 2:25 am)
When I first started watching Enterprise, I didn't like T'Pol. When I started to warm up to her, I hoped she and Archer would get together romantically, but then I realized that the deep relationship of friendship, trust, and respect (and possibly love) that was building between them was much better and more powerful than a romantic love would have been.

He never was in a situation with a woman that seemed a good match for him until Home. Erika and Archer definitely had chemistry and history. The history was understandable and believable. Two strong, focused, driven, mature, intelligent individuals who were attracted to each but couldn't take it any further because of career issues (both wanted to be starship captains and he was her superior in rank). When they meet again in Home, she is his equal in all important ways including rank. She obviously still has feelings for him and he for her, but he is going through a difficult emotional and psychological period after the Xindi situation. He is questioning his basic moral underpinnings and what he has been forced to become and he is depressed. I think on that mountain she realizes how deeply he is affected by what he's been through and I do believe that if there is one person who can help him through it, it's Erika. The main problem, though, is as long as they're both starship captains, it can never really progress much further than that night on the mountain.

(At one point before the Xindi arc finished, SB made the following comment in an interview: "Doesn't look like Captain Archer will ever get laid in space. And I'm okay with that, I just plan on taking it out on the Xindi.")
:laugh:


ARCHER: Oh my God, she just slapped my ass!


SORRY! Wrong thread!  :laugh:

Whenever ST comes back to our screens, I'd like to see a married starship captain. All previous captains have had romantic flings, but most end up being married to the job 9unless you've read the post-Nemesis books with Picard and Beverly. I know we've had a widowed (and eventually remarried) captain, but a blissfully married captain could be interesting.

No kids though.   :laugh:

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