ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Could'a, Would'a, Should'a

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4008

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 2:53 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Nov. 12 2009, 2:44 pm)
Quote (trekbuff @ Nov. 12 2009, 9:48 am)
Narada, all of the canon references you site were either from FC or after the release of that movie.

As the Enterprise-E came from some 300 years in the future to go back to 2063, there had to be a 2063 300 years before the events of FC. Cochrane had to make the Phoenix flight before there would ever be an Enterprise-E.

trekbuff,

In the TOS episode "Metamorphosis" Cochrane recognizes Spock as a Vulcan after having had no outside contact with anyone for 150 years. This means that First Contact with Vulcan happened before Cochrane departed Aplha Centauri in 2117 (though I believe that Enterprise pushes that date back to 2119 - I'll return momentarily to this). While Cochrane's statement alone doesn't constitute definitive proof of an original event, it does lay the foundation for FC to build from and at the very least narrow the parameters by which to judge. Cochrane's statement from "Metamorphosis" when compared to Seven of Nine's example of the Pogo Paradox would seem to narrow the parameters even more and suggest that no major temporal deviations occurred.

Coming back to the issue of 2117 vs. 2119 (this is perhaps meticulous, but I want to have all my statements backed up).

The NX-01 was launched in April of 2151. The dedication ceremony for the warp five complex was 32 years prior, which is 2119 and Cochrane was still around for the ceremony. McCoy's line in "Metamorphosis" about Cochrane disappearing 150 years ago suggests he was rounding. This would further suggest that the book Star Trek: Chronology was slightly off due to a lack of information.

Thank you for adding to this discussion. Metamorphosis does not offer proof because Zefram sees a Vulcan either way. Yes he sees one in First Contact but he would also see one the 1st time where there is no Borg involvement. This is why it cannot be evidence either way.

The only way to answer the "debate" is to ask Zefram this question during Metamorphosis. "Did you see Picard and the Borg?" If Cochrane answers "No" then we know the Original Series and the Next Generation are within a previous time line. If he answers "Yes" then we know the Original Series and the Next Generation come after Enterprise.

This is what is exciting about having Guinan on Enterprise. During "Yesterdays Enterprise" she knew the time line became changed. Well she was alive during Enterprise we know this from "Time's Arrow." She can tell us if something is wrong with the time line or if this is meant to be.

Another thing to think about. The 1st warp flight where Zefram did it without Picard becomes erased and in this future the Earth becomes Borg. If Picard does not go back in time there is only a Borg future. This is more evidence that First Contact then becomes the true history because the Borg changed the past. If nobody goes back to stop the Borg then there is no Starfleet and the Earth is Borg.

This is a causality.

I am sorry to disagree with these for evidence. People keep saying this is complicated but it is not. We do not need to look with stardates or anything. It is all clearly shown on screen. People here either do not agree or they do not see what is shown. It is not my goal for people to see from this perspective but I am getting tired of nobody seeing how simple it really is. And most of all that it can be a sensible option.

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4008

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 3:19 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Nov. 12 2009, 1:15 pm)
[quote=trekbuff,Nov. 12 2009, 9:48 am]Narada, all of the canon references you site were either from FC or after the release of that movie.
Wrong. You know very well the direct evidence I site is correct. This is why you do not answer.
Quote

Funny thing.. It's rather like what some seem to believe is a paradox of the chicken and the egg - which came first?

It's simple, really. The evolutionary critter that laid the egg from which came the first chicken was not quite yet a chicken. Ergo, the egg came first. ;)
Yes this is the first time. After that the chicken goes back in time and lays the egg. There is a time event.

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4008

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 3:31 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Nov. 12 2009, 3:25 pm)
Quote (Narada @ Nov. 12 2009, 2:34 pm)
I already answered the question satisfactorily. You claim I believe something that is not reasonable. You also compare this to a chicken and egg scenario. I know there had to be a 1st Zefram flight without the Borg for the 1st time. This is fundamental. You say the Original Series and the Next Generation occurred after this warp flight without the Borg. I say all of Star Trek happens after First Contact. I will not discuss this anymore because you classify my evidence incorrectly and nobody here is understanding these time scenarios correctly. I am tired of your unwillingness to see this scenario and I do not consider discussing with you to be a worthwhile activity.

You claim the Original Series and the Next Generation happen first in chronology. I show the example of Archer IV and the Captain Archer records from the USS Defiant and also "These Are The Voyages" which occurs during "The Pegasus." This evidence can be seen before First Contact. So you are incorrect. If this evidence is seen before First Contact it is direct evidence for a causality. A causality can happen and it is not overcomplicated. It is directly shown to have occurred by what is said on Voyager "Relativity." Someone disprove this to be true but nobody here can because it is what happens in Star Trek. There is an open invitation for anyone who wishes to prove Star Trek only happens in production order chronology. I have proven it can happen in linear chronology. For Enterprise fans this means your show connects with the rest of Star Trek.

The original time line creates the Federation. However once the Borg interfere with Zefram there is a causality that never gets resolved. We know it does not get resolved because Picard and his crew help Zefram. Picard and his crew are not supposed to be in the past but they are and they always will be. This is your chicken and the egg. They are the chicken that goes back in time and lays an egg. In the scenario I support we know they go back in time to lay the egg. It is very simple. Since you are claiming this is over complicated shows more about your understanding for Star Trek and your unwillingness to accept concepts.

I satisfactorily showed my theory is simple but you will not acknowledge. You will not even acknowledge the lip of young Spock has green blood but you say it is red because you saw an online screen shot of a pirate copy. Yet you will continue to claim it was red and the producers doctored the green blood with special effects. I should know better to not have serious discussions with you.

;)

Again you are twisting my words and denying my evidence. You are only trying to make people think you are right but you cannot prove it. I have offered evidence and answered the questions. My theory is supported clearly on screen. Rebut the evidence if it is not true.

I am not even saying this theory is the only way to see. I have always said it can be viewed both ways. You twist my words because I never said only my way is right. You will not acknowledge my way is a possibility but it is clearly shown on screen.

And is the blood on the lip of young Spock red or green?

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 3:50 pm

Narada, understand that my argument was actually taking your side. I too believe we're watching all of Trek: ENT through Nemesis through the eyes of one time line.

Quote
Metamorphosis does not offer proof because Zefram sees a Vulcan either way. Yes he sees one in First Contact but he would also see one the 1st time where there is no Borg involvement. This is why it cannot be evidence either way.

Truth be known we do not know if Cochrane would see a Vulcan in 2063 of the very "original" timeline, that's if I understand trekbuff's point correctly. Let's say we start off with our view that we're watching FC as a predestination paradox or pogo paradox (sorry, trekbuff, if I'm speaking too generically for you by swapping paradox with loop, but I don't want to get bogged down in semantics)... let's further speculate that the predestination paradox actually evolved out of dozens of temporal incursions recycling - that is the predestination paradox becomes based off of dozens or hundreds of similar time loops (in which case trekbuff is right and it's not a paradox at all) rather to the one 'original' timeline from which the others began.

Now, the TNG episode "Cause and Effect" showed how changes can crop up from time loop to time loop. With such changes being possible and returning to the issue in the above paragraph, changes could accumulate to alter the "predestination paradox timeline" significantly from the "original" timeline. That is to say changes slowly evolved from the "original" timeline as subsequent loops built upon one another OR there could have just been a drastic change from the "original", subsequent loops built upon that change, eventually recording it as fact, and our heroes believe this fact to be true. Given this type of scenario it's entirely possible Cochrane didn't originally attract the attention of the Vulcans in 2063. A later ship of Cochrane's may have contacted the Vulcans, though this would still be before 2117/2119 from trekbuff's point of view.

In "City On The Edge of Forever" Spock relates the theory that "time is fluid like a river with currents, eddies, backwash," suggesting that time has a direction of flow that it prefers to follow. However, rivers can eventually change direction or follow new paths as they are carved out over time.

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4008

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 4:10 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Nov. 12 2009, 3:50 pm)
Narada, understand that my argument was actually taking your side. I too believe we're watching all of Trek: ENT through Nemesis through the eyes of one time line.

Quote
Metamorphosis does not offer proof because Zefram sees a Vulcan either way. Yes he sees one in First Contact but he would also see one the 1st time where there is no Borg involvement. This is why it cannot be evidence either way.

Truth be known we do not know if Cochrane would see a Vulcan in 2063 of the very "original" timeline, that's if I understand trekbuff's point correctly. Let's say we start off with our view that we're watching FC as a predestination paradox or pogo paradox (sorry, trekbuff, if I'm speaking too generically for you by swapping paradox with loop, but I don't want to get bogged down in semantics)... let's further speculate that the predestination paradox actually evolved out of dozens of temporal incursions recycling - that is the predestination paradox becomes based off of dozens or hundreds of similar time loops (in which case trekbuff is right and it's not a paradox at all) rather to the one 'original' timeline from which the others began.

Now, the TNG episode "Cause and Effect" showed how changes can crop up from time loop to time loop. With such changes being possible and returning to the issue in the above paragraph, changes could accumulate to alter the "predestination paradox timeline" significantly from the "original" timeline. That is to say changes slowly evolved from the "original" timeline as subsequent loops built upon one another OR there could have just been a drastic change from the "original", subsequent loops built upon that change, eventually recording it as fact, and our heroes believe this fact to be true. Given this type of scenario it's entirely possible Cochrane didn't originally attract the attention of the Vulcans in 2063. A later ship of Cochrane's may have contacted the Vulcans, though this would still be before 2117/2119 from trekbuff's point of view.

In "City On The Edge of Forever" Spock relates the theory that "time is fluid like a river with currents, eddies, backwash," suggesting that time has a direction of flow that it prefers to follow. However, rivers can eventually change direction or follow new paths as they are carved out over time.

Yes lostshaker I know you were arguing for the linear chronology concept. I did not want you to take my comment the wrong way. I can only say that my approach to these discussions is very impartial as I am looking for direct evidence. There is a quote from Tuvok in Ex Post Facto which I very much relate with about diligently pursuing the truth. Since no speculation is allowed in this discussion I am only trying to find very direct evidence. And there is much direct evidence already provided.

I know what you mean about a time loop that can change over time. This is possible but it cannot be direct evidence. We can only know what is shown on screen. This is why I look for only what is shown. The reason I am so adamant for this theory is because it allows for all Star Trek to exist on screen as it is with no explanation. Despite contrary claims this is not so complicated. There is no speculation or imagination needed.

I know you also believe this scenario and you probably thought this all through. I wish to clarify this scenario for anyone else who is interested about how they think about Star Trek chronology. An important thing to note is I do not claim there was never a 1st Zefram flight without the Borg. There was of course we just did not see it and we did not see after it. This is because I view Star Trek in order of linear chronology and not in production order chronology.

I feel it is clear that what is shown on screen all happens after First Contact. Why do I believe this? Because on screen the events unfold chronologically and lead to the events of First Contact. If events did not lead up to First Contact then there would be no First Contact. Without the events of First Contact the Borg take over the Earth in the past. If all events lead to First Contact and come out of First Contact the time line is complete and intact. There is no time line alteration but it is continuous as seen on screen. It does not only happen once and they are done. It becomes a permanent fixture and a causality.

TrekFan1701E

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14979

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 5:45 pm

Doc Brown explained time travel in Back To The Future Part II on that chalkboard. I think Orci and Kurtzman used that explaination.

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4008

Report this Nov. 12 2009, 6:02 pm

Yes this is true. That is why I mentioned Back To The Future in relation to First Contact. They are both altered prime time line scenarios. If we begin to describe alternate time lines and parallel universes this will create another very different and bigger discussion.

:laugh: ¿:cool: ¿:cool:

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum