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Eye of the Needle

MrsStarbuck

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POSTS: 4329

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 6:08 am

What a sad episode, that they thought they'd found a way home, but then all of their attempts were seemingly thwarted (although maybe the Romulan really did give the chip to someone else) . I presume there'll be many more of these 'we may have found a way home - gosh darn it, that won't work' kind of storylines.

An important episode for the Doctor. I like the relationship developing between him and Kes, and it's quite a testament to how caring she is that she has considered him almost human all along. I think she surprised Janeway when she asked the Captain to take better care of the Doctor, and obviously Janeway modified her approach to him because of Kes's words. It was a nice moment when Janeway told him that he was now a fully-fledged member of the crew, and offered to give him control over his own de-activation.

It's also highly significant I guess that he wants a name. I wonder what he'll choose...

As to the wormhole storyline...I've always loved Romulans, and R'Mor is another great character. He was incredibly brave, offering to be transported onto Voyager before they'd even tested the transporter link with a human, and also it was very honourable of him to offer to save the messages for twenty years and then deliver them (then again, their honour is one of the qualities I adore most in the Romulans...if I don't count the STXI Romulans anyway! )

It was also nice in this episode to see Harry Kim getting a bit of respect from the rest of the crew, and even though Tuvok thought that he might be being 'over enthusiastic' (darn Vulcan! ), Janeway had full confidence in Kim all along.

Poor Chakotay didn't seem to get much to do...I'm starting to see what you guys mean about him being a bit of a 'wasted' character.

I suppose with Voyager it's kind of a different approach than TOS. In TOS, they may have had one or two episodes that focussed on another crew member, but they always had time for the 'main three', Kirk, Spock and McCoy. In Voyager they seem to shift the focus more strongly from one episode to the next, which keeps things interesting, but then means that certain characters get 'left out' a little bit...

Anyway, a good episode, and I'm really interested to see the Doctor develop further.

MrsStarbuck

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POSTS: 4329

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 6:18 am

Quote (Captan_jean_luc_picard_1A @ Oct. 16 2009, 7:37 pm)
Somehow I think your missing something that applies to the doctor.

I think you might be good to rewatch Caretaker, Parallax, and The Cloud again.

But generally, the doctor isn't having a sense of humor in a way.  In a way yes and no.

I guess it takes awhile for some to understand the doctor.

Some never do I think.

But Kes kinda understood him.

So pay attention to there conversations.


Okay, so you've still got me thinking about what I've 'missed' with the Doctor.

Is it something like he's been built as a sentient being, but he doesn't realise it yet?

Kes seems to treat him like a sentient being, and she is always encouraging him to 'think' for himself or to have opinions on things. But I think the Doctor thinks that any 'reactions' he has are simply part of his programming...when possibly that's not strictly the case?

chr3335

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Report this Oct. 20 2009, 6:28 am

From what i can understand the EMH's were built at least semi self aware to help diagnose medical emergencies and to better treat illness but were not designed to be turned on for an extended period of time thus there was no real precedence much less procedure on what to do with him.

This is one of thous episodes where you know they are doomed to fail as it was still really early in the show.  The time travel bit was interesting but the worm hole made me laugh (solid walls?)

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Oct. 20 2009, 6:44 am

Quote (chr3335 @ Oct. 19 2009, 12:28 pm)
From what i can understand the EMH's were built at least semi self aware to help diagnose medical emergencies and to better treat illness but were not designed to be turned on for an extended period of time thus there was no real precedence much less procedure on what to do with him.


But I don't believe that the Doctor is aware of this. Kes says something to him in this episode about him being able to make his own decisions, because he is able to decide on what treatment to give people, and he replies that it's just down to his programming.

But you're right that no-one could have known what would happen when he is activated for long periods of time, or even when he is faced with the kind of challenges that present themselves on Voyager.

Isn't it a theorised feature of AI that machines might be able to become 'adaptable' to their surroundings, and to 'evolve' into more than what their initial programming deemed them capable of? I suppose this is what could be happening here.

I find him fascinating anyway.

Quote (chr3335 @ Oct. 19 2009, 12:28 pm)
The time travel bit was interesting but the worm hole made me laugh (solid walls?)


ha ha, yeah. I've given up noticing the 'science' now, because it's always just used as a handy plot device and never anything deeper.

Not that that's a bad thing necessarily. I've said this before, but to me Voyager is all about the characters and their interactions, not as much about what's happening around them (so far anyway)

exodus201

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Report this Oct. 20 2009, 10:20 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Oct. 20 2009, 6:18 am)
Quote (Captan_jean_luc_picard_1A @ Oct. 16 2009, 7:37 pm)
Somehow I think your missing something that applies to the doctor.

I think you might be good to rewatch Caretaker, Parallax, and The Cloud again.

But generally, the doctor isn't having a sense of humor in a way. ¿In a way yes and no.

I guess it takes awhile for some to understand the doctor.

Some never do I think.

But Kes kinda understood him.

So pay attention to there conversations.


Okay, so you've still got me thinking about what I've 'missed' with the Doctor.

Is it something like he's been built as a sentient being, but he doesn't realise it yet?

Kes seems to treat him like a sentient being, and she is always encouraging him to 'think' for himself or to have opinions on things. But I think the Doctor thinks that any 'reactions' he has are simply part of his programming...when possibly that's not strictly the case?

Kes is a child, so too a child even Barney is real.
Kes doesn't know any different, so too her a hologram person is real.

The EMH was given his creators personality.  So he thinks and acts as if he were Dr. Zimmerman himself.  The EMH isn't sentient because he is still a slave to his programming.

However due to Kes being nieve, she plants the seeds to the Doc's future.

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Oct. 20 2009, 10:24 am

Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 19 2009, 4:20 pm)
Kes is a child, so too a child even Barney is real.
Kes doesn't know any different, so too her a hologram person is real.

The first time I read that, I thought you were referring to the Doctor as Barney. I was just going to say, 'he can pick any name in the world and he goes with Barney?' :laugh:

exodus201

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Report this Oct. 20 2009, 10:27 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Oct. 20 2009, 10:24 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 19 2009, 4:20 pm)
Kes is a child, so too a child even Barney is real.
Kes doesn't know any different, so too her a hologram person is real.

The first time I read that, I thought you were referring to the Doctor as Barney. I was just going to say, 'he can pick any name in the world and he goes with Barney?' :laugh:

Don't laugh, that very subject comes up later in the series about the Doc.


Stay tuned. ;)

brcarthey

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POSTS: 2608

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 10:36 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Oct. 20 2009, 6:44 am)
Quote (chr3335 @ Oct. 19 2009, 12:28 pm)
From what i can understand the EMH's were built at least semi self aware to help diagnose medical emergencies and to better treat illness but were not designed to be turned on for an extended period of time thus there was no real precedence much less procedure on what to do with him.


But I don't believe that the Doctor is aware of this. Kes says something to him in this episode about him being able to make his own decisions, because he is able to decide on what treatment to give people, and he replies that it's just down to his programming.

But you're right that no-one could have known what would happen when he is activated for long periods of time, or even when he is faced with the kind of challenges that present themselves on Voyager.

Isn't it a theorised feature of AI that machines might be able to become 'adaptable' to their surroundings, and to 'evolve' into more than what their initial programming deemed them capable of? I suppose this is what could be happening here.

I find him fascinating anyway.

Quote (chr3335 @ Oct. 19 2009, 12:28 pm)
The time travel bit was interesting but the worm hole made me laugh (solid walls?)


ha ha, yeah. I've given up noticing the 'science' now, because it's always just used as a handy plot device and never anything deeper.

Not that that's a bad thing necessarily. I've said this before, but to me Voyager is all about the characters and their interactions, not as much about what's happening around them (so far anyway)

IMO, out of the first half of season one episodes, this was the best episode.  the b-storyline was fine with the emh/kes interactions, but the primary plot with the romulan from the past was really engaging. i kept wondering "will he or won't he" pass along the crew's messages.  then, that splash of cold water that only a vulcan can deliver with such annoying calm, the scientist dies in a few years.  

as for the wormhole, it's been awhile since i've seen the episode so what problem(s) did you have with the wormhole? if i remember correctly, they could only send a probe into it. so what's this about walls?  most of the science is there, the only thing they most sci-fi gets wrong are the sizes of wormholes needed to bring objects through it.  can someone refresh me with the problem of this wormhole?

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 1:19 pm

Kes provided the classic alien outsider looking in at the Doctor and not seeing him as being any different from his creators, which I think is great. Humans created the Doctor for a specific purpose and didn't see him as anything beyond his programming (a point that will be revisited in "Author, Author"). But Kes recognized that the Doctor had the ability to learn, grow, and adapt. Kes may have been a kid, but kids don't come with built in blinders such as racism and prejudices - these are learned behaviors. The Doctor really came into his own once he decided to build upon his programming and exceed his parameters as an EMH.

MS, you are spot on about R'Mor. He's one of the few Romulans that lived up to Mark Lenard's portrayal of a Romulan Commander in TOS' "Balance of Terror". The only other example I can think of is Centurion Bochra in TNG's "The Enemy".

Narada

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POSTS: 4010

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 1:52 pm

I very much like this episode!

Captan_jean_luc_picard_1A

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POSTS: 426

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 2:29 pm

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Oct. 20 2009, 6:18 am)
Quote (Captan_jean_luc_picard_1A @ Oct. 16 2009, 7:37 pm)
Somehow I think your missing something that applies to the doctor.

I think you might be good to rewatch Caretaker, Parallax, and The Cloud again.

But generally, the doctor isn't having a sense of humor in a way. ¿In a way yes and no.

I guess it takes awhile for some to understand the doctor.

Some never do I think.

But Kes kinda understood him.

So pay attention to there conversations.


Okay, so you've still got me thinking about what I've 'missed' with the Doctor.

Is it something like he's been built as a sentient being, but he doesn't realise it yet?

Kes seems to treat him like a sentient being, and she is always encouraging him to 'think' for himself or to have opinions on things. But I think the Doctor thinks that any 'reactions' he has are simply part of his programming...when possibly that's not strictly the case?

The problem isn't Kes.

Well...because hes made of light and his mind functions differently people treat him as a no more different that a Dermal Regenerator.

He does think therefore he is.

I guess a few Next generation eps about Data will see what I mean.

They BOTH function on programming.  Probably different.  Different types of body.

But its the same.

its the basic principal "I think therefore I am."

Now the almost finding a way home.  We are looking at a crew whos main goal is to find a way home while exploring.  I will confirm your assumption.

To what end?  You will have to watch and see.

His sense of humor is showing when he is angry.  Just keep a eye on him and the general crew.  See how they mix and match.

decide for yourself.

This ep is somewhat sad I agree.

But they learned something.  And by the way, the romulans do starfleet a favor?  maybe a individual.  But not the main empire who communicates with the romulans.

Kirks Romulans and Picards are 2 different mind sets.  Both are different.

Don't expect to see a ton of the Romulans in Voyager.  Theres another ep.  But I wont ruin it for you.

I think you will love Next generation.  But keep in mind the Enterprise-D launched first in 2361.  ten year gap.

I do to.

Keep watching.

He starts out as intended.  But Lets see where he goes.

He He.

Captan_jean_luc_picard_1A

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POSTS: 426

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 2:32 pm

Quote (chr3335 @ Oct. 20 2009, 6:28 am)
From what i can understand the EMH's were built at least semi self aware to help diagnose medical emergencies and to better treat illness but were not designed to be turned on for an extended period of time thus there was no real precedence much less procedure on what to do with him.

This is one of thous episodes where you know they are doomed to fail as it was still really early in the show. ?The time travel bit was interesting but the worm hole made me laugh (solid walls?)

There not completly solid.

It was a tacheon worm hole. ¿Bordered in Matter and Anti-matter.  A tacheon worm hole.  Personally I find it humorous they didn't realize its tacheon properties.

Know your trek tech. ¿Our above watcher has one. ¿Shes new. ¿Whats yours?

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 4:11 pm

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Oct. 19 2009, 3:08 pm)
What a sad episode, that they thought they'd found a way home, but then all of their attempts were seemingly thwarted (although maybe the Romulan really did give the chip to someone else) . I presume there'll be many more of these 'we may have found a way home - gosh darn it, that won't work' kind of storylines.

An important episode for the Doctor. I like the relationship developing between him and Kes, and it's quite a testament to how caring she is that she has considered him almost human all along. I think she surprised Janeway when she asked the Captain to take better care of the Doctor, and obviously Janeway modified her approach to him because of Kes's words. It was a nice moment when Janeway told him that he was now a fully-fledged member of the crew, and offered to give him control over his own de-activation.

It's also highly significant I guess that he wants a name. I wonder what he'll choose...

As to the wormhole storyline...I've always loved Romulans, and R'Mor is another great character. He was incredibly brave, offering to be transported onto Voyager before they'd even tested the transporter link with a human, and also it was very honourable of him to offer to save the messages for twenty years and then deliver them (then again, their honour is one of the qualities I adore most in the Romulans...if I don't count the STXI Romulans anyway! )

It was also nice in this episode to see Harry Kim getting a bit of respect from the rest of the crew, and even though Tuvok thought that he might be being 'over enthusiastic' (darn Vulcan! ), Janeway had full confidence in Kim all along.

Poor Chakotay didn't seem to get much to do...I'm starting to see what you guys mean about him being a bit of a 'wasted' character.

I suppose with Voyager it's kind of a different approach than TOS. In TOS, they may have had one or two episodes that focussed on another crew member, but they always had time for the 'main three', Kirk, Spock and McCoy. In Voyager they seem to shift the focus more strongly from one episode to the next, which keeps things interesting, but then means that certain characters get 'left out' a little bit...

Anyway, a good episode, and I'm really interested to see the Doctor develop further.

Agreed, Good Episode.

Heading home, overcoming obstacles, pissing off aliens and charting stars.

It was fun to see a Romulans and quite surprising that it took so long to realize the time discrepancy, but they have to keep up engaged.

As for Mr Kim... He is a good sidekick. I mean really? Who wants to watch a show about Rocky the Squirrel? But as Toms smart and pressed pants friend he's great!  There is a great Kim episode on the horizon.

Yes, the Doc and Kes. I liked Exodus's take on this! An intriguing theory! The Doctor charater, just gets better and better. Kes just kinds plateaus. I mean things happen to her and there are more developments, but she's always sorta single facet Kes.  Shrug.

Poor Chuckles... Better get used to it pal! :)

TNG took ST and made it one part science one part daytime drama. Voyager, DS9, ENT all follow suite. Lots of interpersonal relations. much more so that TOS did (at least in the 1 season I've seen)

Enjoy, and keep up the reviews!

SLagonia

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POSTS: 18170

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 5:07 pm

Eye of the Needle was the first Voyager episode I really liked and the first Top-150 episode in the series, and all this dispite the fact that the entire episode was based around an asurd concept - They tried to force a "will they make it home" drama into the first half of the first season?

Still, great execution.  I think it accidently was pretty good tension, because I kinda wondered how their hopes would be dashed, and as it turns out it was a very original and creative concept to end it.

MrsStarbuck

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POSTS: 4329

Report this Oct. 20 2009, 5:18 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ Oct. 19 2009, 4:36 pm)
as for the wormhole, it's been awhile since i've seen the episode so what problem(s) did you have with the wormhole? if i remember correctly, they could only send a probe into it. so what's this about walls? ¿most of the science is there, the only thing they most sci-fi gets wrong are the sizes of wormholes needed to bring objects through it. ¿can someone refresh me with the problem of this wormhole?

Well I can't speak for Chr3335 and what he actually meant, but the way I interpreted his post was that he was referring to the visual representation of the wormhole, the way they made it look like a 'fuzzy tunnel'.

I've always imagined that if you were inside a wormhole, then from your point of view it would just look like normal space. Especially to the probe, which was a microprobe wasn't it? Or am I remembering that bit wrong?

But like I said, I didn't have a problem with it myself. I realise that it's a TV show, and that they have to show the wormhole in a way that the general audience will get...but people always seem to go for the fuzzy tunnel image.

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