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Caretaker

exodus201

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Report this Oct. 13 2009, 7:16 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ Oct. 13 2009, 6:31 pm)

I'm sayin'!!!!

SLagonia

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POSTS: 18170

Report this Oct. 13 2009, 9:16 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 12 2009, 10:15 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 13 2009, 4:29 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 12 2009, 3:52 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 13 2009, 12:48 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 12 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 13 2009, 12:17 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 12 2009, 2:45 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 13 2009, 11:34 am)
*Double sigh*

The PD doesn't just void itself once there is some contamination.

Why are we even debating this? ?It's a violation - It's right there in the law! ?Brcarthey was even good enough to post the law for us! ?There's no debating what is right there in black and white in front of you. ?We can argue all day about whether she should have done it or not (though since we agree, you'll have to change your position), but you can't debate something this obvious. ?It's like debating whether or not Suder was guilty of homicide. ?There's no debate here, just fact.

Fact: The Caretaker contaminated Ocampan society by abducting B'elanna and Harry and sending them down.
Fact: Janeway corrected this by getting them out.
Fact: After she corrected this, she moved to confront the Kazon approaching the array. ?With no transporter technology and no way of penetrating the hull, the Kazon had no way of entering the array, yet they still sought to claim what was essentially a derelect ship in inter-planetary space. ?
Fact: Voyager fought a delaying action, and the result was the damage of the station and its self-destruct capabilities. ?
Fact: Tuvok at this point warns Janeway that destroying the array would shift the balance of power, and constitute a prime directive violation.
Fact: Janeway dismisses Tuvok and destroys the array.

Now, strictly according to the PD, Janeway should have fought for a retreat and then opened diplomatic channels for use of the array. ?Failing that, she should at least have done her best to limit her damage to the array and leave it for the Kazon to salvage after using it to return home.

Should she have done this? ?No. ?Legally was she bound to do it? ?Yes. ?Morally was she bound to do the opposite and save the Ocampa? ?Yes.

But just because she was morally bound doesn't mean she was legally allowed to act the way she did. ?It would be illegal for me to speed while bringing a pregnant woman to the hospital, but obviously I want to get her there in a rush, and would do it anyway. ?That doesn't make it legal, that makes it morally right.

The Caretaker, a warp capible species asked her not to allow the Kazon to get ahold of the array & to save the Ocampia

Yes, and according to the directive, she should have declined.

So you don't think the Kazon would have used the Array to not only wipe out the Ocampa but destroy Voyager as well?

They would of had the ability to kill off all the other Kazon factions, the Trabe & anybody else that opposed them. ?They also would've had the ability to transport greater technology from anywhere in the galaxy, thus making them even more powerful. ?Making the Kazon a threat all across the galaxy.

Honestly, I doubt they could have figured it out.

But either way, you are making my point - She completely changed the balance of power through her actions. ?Whether it was for the better or not, that is exactly what she was willing to wipe entire worlds out to uphold later in the series.

Wipe what worlds out?

Changed the balance of power how?

Wiping out through inaction, like in Time and Again when she had it within her power to save them and chose not to for no reason other than the prime directive.

Changed the balance of power as in if she didn't interfear, the Kazon would have salvaged the array and taken their rightful place as a powerful society. ?Obviously that's not a good thing, but it is the natural thing, and according to Janeway, what is natural is what is right.

What Bizarro World Voyager are you watching?

Nobody died in "Time & Again".


The Caretakers Array was set to self destruct. ¿The Kazon wouldn't have gotten it anyway.

No one died in Time and Again, correct.  Why does that matter?  She made a conscious decission to let them all be wiped out, and would have let it happen had the timeline not reverted back to normal.

brcarthey

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Report this Oct. 13 2009, 10:53 pm

^huh? :question:   can you clarify that last sentence (without making it 12-pages long)?  ;)

lostshaker

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Report this Oct. 14 2009, 2:25 am

"1,000 years earlier, the Nacene (the Caretaker's race) accidentally devastated the atmosphere of the Ocampa planet, rendering the surface a desert." Star Trek: Encyclopedia 1999. This incident was the starting point of interference.  Had the Nacene never devastated the Ocampan Atmosphere, the Caretaker would not have stayed to care for the Ocampa, and the Kazon would never end up with the Array. That is the 'natural' history.

But the Caretaker did stay and provided an environment that made the Ocampa dependent on the Caretaker.  With the Caretaker passing away, Janeway had faith the Ocampa would learn to survive on their own again. And Janeway has the right within the guidelines of the PD to destroy the Array since it was the Caretaker who requested his property be destroyed (and it was the Caretaker that brought VGR to the Delta Quadrant and performed experiments on them).  I'd say Voyager was became heavily involved with the Caretaker.

exodus201

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Report this Oct. 14 2009, 8:44 am

Quote (brcarthey @ Oct. 13 2009, 10:53 pm)
^huh? :question: ¿ can you clarify that last sentence (without making it 12-pages long)? ¿;)

Dear God, Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!


:laugh:

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Oct. 14 2009, 8:54 am

Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 14 2009, 8:44 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Oct. 13 2009, 10:53 pm)
^huh? :question: ? can you clarify that last sentence (without making it 12-pages long)? ?;)

Dear God, Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!


:laugh:

i do seem to have a masochistic streak.  :laugh:

exodus201

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Report this Oct. 14 2009, 8:58 am

Quote (brcarthey @ Oct. 14 2009, 8:54 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 14 2009, 8:44 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Oct. 13 2009, 10:53 pm)
^huh? :question: ? can you clarify that last sentence (without making it 12-pages long)? ?;)

Dear God, Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!


:laugh:

i do seem to have a masochistic streak. ¿:laugh:

Yeah, you do. :whatthe:

BrotherofShran01

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 23344

Report this Oct. 18 2009, 1:15 am

Quote (lostshaker @ Oct. 14 2009, 2:25 am)
"1,000 years earlier, the Nacene (the Caretaker's race) accidentally devastated the atmosphere of the Ocampa planet, rendering the surface a desert." Star Trek: Encyclopedia 1999. This incident was the starting point of interference. ¿Had the Nacene never devastated the Ocampan Atmosphere, the Caretaker would not have stayed to care for the Ocampa, and the Kazon would never end up with the Array. That is the 'natural' history.

But the Caretaker did stay and provided an environment that made the Ocampa dependent on the Caretaker. ¿With the Caretaker passing away, Janeway had faith the Ocampa would learn to survive on their own again. And Janeway has the right within the guidelines of the PD to destroy the Array since it was the Caretaker who requested his property be destroyed (and it was the Caretaker that brought VGR to the Delta Quadrant and performed experiments on them). ¿I'd say Voyager was became heavily involved with the Caretaker.

Interesting point lostshaker. I would have set the tricobalt devices on a delayed timer to detonate and destroy the array as soon as Voyager entered the Alpha Quad.

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